Amena Brown:
Hey, y'all welcome to a new episode, first new episode. I feel like I have a lot of identifying words that are supposed to go before episode. First new, yes, episode of HER with Amena Brown. I am your host, Amena Brown. I want to thank all of you for tuning in to the relaunch of my podcast. I'm so excited to be a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network and all of our partners there and at iHeartRadio. Hello to all of you. This is the first of many new episodes. Thank you for tuning into the best of HER and even more best to come. Y'all can see that I'm just throwing all sorts of words around because I'm so excited to be in here talking to you.
Amena Brown:
What can you expect from this podcast? You can expect every episode we'll have just a little catch up time, a little time to talk about maybe what's been going on this week. Could be for me personally because I just feel like I'm a person that a lot of very crazy things happen to me. And they turn out to be very interesting stories to share with you. Could also be a time that we talk about maybe some current events or a cool video that I watched online, all sorts of things. I love to have a segment of this podcast that is really me borrowing a little bit from things that I would do on stage when performing. So I've got a lot of fun, comedic bits and poetic readings that I can't wait to share with you all.
Amena Brown:
In this podcast, sometimes there will be a guest here. We will invite a guest into our HER living room. And when I'm bringing those guests into the living room, we will talk about different things that they may be doing in their work, in their life that are helping them to access joy, that are helping them to continue to be inspired. I hope as you hear their stories that that's inspiring to you too. One thing you can always expect from this podcast, you can expect that we will be centering the stories of women of color here. And when I say women of color, what do I mean? I mean, Black women, Indigenous women, Asian women, and Latinx women. You can expect those stories to be centered here. You can expect that when I bring a guest here, it's someone whose work and life that I really find inspiring. And I hope you will too.
Amena Brown:
And when we don't have a guest, I like to call this segment a time for me to pontificate. It's a time that I can share with you some things that I'm learning, things that I think are important for you to know, maybe put you on to some music, some books, some art, some people that you can also be inspired by. And you can always expect at the end of every episode, whether I do this or I invite a guest to do this I will always pick a woman of color for the segment Give Her A Crown. And Give Her A Crown is a time to think about a woman of color who is doing amazing and inspiring work and shout her out. I also hope that when you think of Give Her A Crown, that you think of women in your life who deserve a crown, deserve to be celebrated.
Amena Brown:
It could be something really huge in their life that deserves celebration. It could be that you are so proud of what to some people may seem like a small thing. For some of us, we deserve a crown for getting out of bed. For some of us, we deserve a crown for caring for our aging parents. Some of us deserve a crown for not cursing someone out that day, right? So we want to be able to give the people crowns who deserve them. That's a little bit of what you can expect from HER with Amena Brown. I am inviting you into this audio living room that we have. I hope you're getting comfy. I hope you took your shoes off. I hope you have a pillow that you can hold onto, but if you're driving, don't do any of that, hold onto the steering wheel and focus on that. Okay? Good.
Amena Brown:
Yo. Okay. We are, as of the recording of this episode in the middle of a global pandemic and I am living here in the U.S. I live in Atlanta, Georgia. We are in the thick of it here. And I've learned a few things about myself during this pandemic. It has been a very interesting time of ups and downs. My life before the pandemic was very, very busy. So there were a couple of weeks during our time of quarantine that I just enjoyed having some time off and just not doing anything and eating whatever I wanted. I will tell you a couple of things I've learned about myself during this time and maybe you also are learning these things. Number one, I learned that a pandemic for me is not a great time to start a new eating plan. I had planned to do a lot of things before the pandemic. I was going to get on this high protein, low carb situation. And as soon as the pandemic came in I was immediately like, "Oops, craving bread and craving cupcakes. And that is what I'm going to do, eating pasta, whatever. That's what I'm having."
Amena Brown:
Another thing I learned about myself since the pandemic is it's creating some really interesting social strata, right? I'm having a lot of conversation with my girlfriends about how do you decide who's in your social distancing bubble, right? And I feel like part of this is judgy, but I don't know. I'm trying to figure out if it's judgy or not. So you all can tell me if you think this is judgy. But I feel like there are different things that I'm looking for when I'm trying to find out if someone can be in my social distance bubble, right? Because at first we were all... Well, I can't say we were all, but some of us were being very strict about quarantining and social distancing, right? That basically meant that you weren't leaving your house unless you had to, right? To get food or whatever other necessary things you need to get, but otherwise you were staying at home. Even most of us that had jobs that could be done from home, that's what we did, right?
Amena Brown:
I want to also stop here and give a special shout-out to the people whose jobs could not be done from home that were and are still helping our country run. So big shout-out to all of our East Central workers, all of the people working in the medical profession, all of the people working in our grocery stores, people doing deliveries, just everyone doing essential work. Thank you. Those jobs cannot be done from home. And those of us who are staying from home, but not be able to stay home as much as we do, if it weren't for you... Thank you. Want to give that shout-out there. Okay. So while you're trying to figure out who's in your social distance bubble there's all these questions like, "Okay, are your people wearing masks?" Right? And when they say social distancing, what do they really mean? It kind of feels a little to me like when I was dating and how there were just certain little catch phrases or different little things that a guy might say that I would immediately be like, "Oh no, we can't date."
Amena Brown:
If I was talking to a guy... I remember I was dating this one guy and I asked him, "Hey, do you have a theme song? Or just a song that motivates you that really gets you going?" He was like, "No, I don't have a theme song." He was like, "I don't even really listen to music that much." And immediately in my mind, I'm like, "Ooh, we can't date." I don't know what to do with the fact that you don't listen to music. What are you doing with your entire life if you're not listening to music? I don't know. So I find myself in conversations with people like family members, friends, whoever, and we're talking and they might say something someplace they've been and as soon as they say that I'm like, "Wow, you can't be in my bubble."
Amena Brown:
I feel like such a judgy person for thinking that way, but these are the types of decisions we're having to make now. If I talk to someone and they're like, "Yeah, I just went on this date last night." And you're like, "Oh, on Zoom? You went on a Zoom date or a FaceTime date?" And they're like, "No. I went out on a date with this person. We went out and we just hung out and we held hands." They start saying some of those facts and you're like, "Oh no, you can't be in my bubble," that's how I feel. I've turned into the person that is judging those people.
Amena Brown:
Also, I did not realize how much I missed just walking through a store just because I wanted to see what was in there. I haven't done that for months until we went to Whole Foods and there is a TJ Maxx next to the Whole Foods closest to our house. It had not been open because TJ Maxx, like many stores have been closed. When I went to Whole Foods and saw that TJ Maxx open, I really could not even think of anything I have need of to buy in TJ Maxx, but just the feeling of walking through the store and being like, "Oh, look at those candles. Oh, look at those face masks. Hmm. I wonder what that shampoo smells like." I did not know how much I missed dear old TJ Maxx until I had the opportunity to just walk through there, wearing my little mask. And you know what they had that I really needed? Is a jade roller for my face. And you know what? It was $8.
Amena Brown:
There's just something about shopping in person and getting to walk through there and just come upon an item. I don't know if there's a way we can kind of replicate that online, but that's not how online shopping is for me. It's like a lot of searching and scrolling and Googling. You're not having fun walking through there and just sniffing candles. You can't do that stuff online. So, shout-out TJ Maxx and all the people that work there. I thank you for your service. Lastly, I'm a person who loves going to the grocery store in general. That's one of my favorite mundane tasks. I mean, I do make a list and I get really organized about it. I have a certain way I like to go through the store and all.
Amena Brown:
And I never thought that I would be so excited to go to the grocery store even more so than usual because for so long that's my only outing. I go so long without leaving my house and then when I do I'm like, "Oh, we're getting up early. We are putting on masks. We are going to go see what's in the store." And it has been really interesting during this pandemic time, the things that are left on the shelves and the things that are totally gone. Where we live, there's still no lysol. Every now and then we'll come upon some bleach or come upon some sort of disinfectant cleaner. And it might be a brand we don't even know, but we're so excited to find it. It's like some sort of treasure hunt type situation that I have come to enjoy. So shout-out to all of the things I've discovered about myself during the pandemic.
Amena Brown:
What have you been discovering about yourself during the pandemic? I would love for you to share it with me online on socials. I would love for you to tell me all about that. This week I am in conversation with Austin Channing Brown. And what a wonderful and fantastic person to welcome into our HER living room. I'm also excited to report that since we recorded this, Austin is now New York Times bestselling author, Austin Channing Brown, for her book, I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness. Listen in as Austin and I are talking like girlfriends would in a living room because she is one of my girlfriends, but we are also talking about the importance of centering the narratives and experiences of black women. We are talking about the importance of celebrating and affirming black dignity. We are talking about some of the things that Austin wrote in I'm Still Here. And if you have not read this book, I encourage you to get ahold of it. It is a fantastic and important read. Check out this conversation with me and Austin.
Amena Brown:
Y'all, I am so just excited that Austin has joined me today because I want y'all to know everything about this book because I got a few pages into and I was like, "She not going to do this to me." Something about Austin's book it's like you're having a little bit of a Harry Potter feeling. And I didn't really read Harry Potter to be honest, but other people that have read it had told me that you start reading it and then you look up and it's 5:00 AM and you're like, "Wait, I was supposed to do other things with my life." That was the feeling I had. I got a few pages in at first and I was like, "Oh no, Austin's not doing this to me. I have a job. I have things that I need to do with my life, please."
Amena Brown:
Another reason why I'm so happy to welcome Austin to the podcast is because we sort of knew of each other in an internet way. We are in some similar spaces speaking and different things. And we finally met at an event and I don't know what the sessions was doing, but we was not going. We got in this corner-
Austin Channing Brown:
We do. [inaudible 00:13:38]-
Amena Brown:
And when... And not talking about the weather and not talking about no sports teams. Like immediately was like Black girl meeting called to order went right there.
Austin Channing Brown:
Let's do this. [crosstalk 00:13:52]-
Amena Brown:
And that was just the beginning of these moments that I have loved in knowing you, Austin. She has opened her home to me when I was in some dire straits. She was like, "Just come to my house, I got this soup." She's-
Austin Channing Brown:
And Amena [inaudible 00:14:08].
Amena Brown:
[crosstalk 00:14:10]. Because it was you birthday, that's why. So we-
Austin Channing Brown:
She always brings me goodies.
Amena Brown:
We've had quite a few moments together that have involved good food-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:14:19]-
Amena Brown:
... and good conversation. So we're letting you all in on a sliver because it'd be some realness that we're obviously not going to talk about on here, but we're going to let y'all at least have a small percentage of what this is. I wanted to talk to Austin about the dignity of the black body because this is a theme that is inherent in your work. Period. In your speaking, in your preaching, in your writing, it's always showing up, which I think is so beautiful. So I'd like to start asking each guest an origin story question. I want to ask you what was one of the earliest memories you can think of where inside yourself you were like, "I love being a black girl?"
Austin Channing Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I attended private white Christian schools growing up where I was initially often the only Black girl. There would be other Black boys in my classroom, but often the only black girl. I remember on a very regular basis all the teachers and students and the cafeteria workers asking me about my hair because it could keep a curl, because it was thick and it was long. It just like really floored them. And this was when I was a little girl. This isn't high school with the weave and the [inaudible 00:15:40] and the-
Amena Brown:
[crosstalk 00:15:41]-
Austin Channing Brown:
You know what I mean? The updo, the glitter. I wouldn't do it all that yet. Just my hair doing what it does, a little black girl with the barrette. You know what I mean?
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
It was just people loved it. I loved it. Now I will confess, I didn't like getting my hair done like be hard. There was a lot of wanting to be yelling and screaming. There was a lot of screaming on the inside.
Amena Brown:
Oh, please. Because we're told that you're not going to be out here screaming like I'm hurting you, but you are hurting me.
Austin Channing Brown:
Hurting me. This does not feel good. And this seat, this pillow was no longer doing it.
Amena Brown:
Please. Oh, you are bringing up some Black girl memories right now. I'm like, "It was a rare moment. I was in a salon." There were definitely some sister so and so is about to cornrow her daughter hair, so you're going to [crosstalk 00:16:35] her house-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:16:35].
Amena Brown:
... and she going to cornrow your hair too. And I'm like, "But I'm uncomfortable and thank you. [crosstalk 00:16:42]-"
Austin Channing Brown:
It's been hours.
Amena Brown:
"... eight hours and-"
Austin Channing Brown:
We have [inaudible 00:16:45]. Yes, I just remember taking great pride in my hair because it just moved so differently.
Amena Brown:
Actually, when I was thinking about this question, my answer is about hair too. I think for me, I was probably maybe six, five or six. I had a friend and her mother knew how to cornrow really well. So she could do the ones where you could get a little design and stuff and then it went down to my shoulders and she would put the beads on the end. Whew! I would swing that hair. I thought I was in a music video, I don't know who else was performing and what they were... It was not music. I was in a video that was pretending to be a music video with no music and it was just me the clack of those bees. I just felt like I am stunting on everybody.
Austin Channing Brown:
My father actually used to cornrow my hair.
Amena Brown:
Really? Come on, dad? Your daddy about to get the dad award out here because I'm like, "I don't even... " Please don't take away my Black girl cards y'all, "But I don't even know how to cornrow." I be out here like-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:18:00].
Amena Brown:
My fingers be like this. I be like, "You're supposed to cut this."
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:18:05]. I be like, "This is not working. Maybe I should try on a baby doll first."
Amena Brown:
Right. Because-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:18:13]. Let me try [inaudible 00:18:14] hair.
Amena Brown:
My situation was not coming together. But it is interesting that we both felt that moment about our hair. And I still feel like now a lot of times that I have that like, "Oh, I love being a Black woman in a moment." It's like something that my hair is doing that I'm like, "You stand out, you take up space."
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:18:34]. Swinging it around. I love that we're not intentionally so, but I love that there's so many secrets around my hair. I can't get on a plane and not have somebody be like, "How long did that take?" And I'd be like, "Well, listen, there's multiple ways doing this." So-
Amena Brown:
Yes, this is me in the aisle at Target. Like being on the natural hair aisle at target, this is me becoming a consultant. And you can tell that the Black woman next to you is trying to see if she can catch your eye. If you're in the mood for that conversation, if you have time and I'll leave her around and then she'll finally say, "So I'm looking for a moisturizer. And I tried this... " Points to rejected product, "I tried this and it did not do the right things for my hair. But then my girlfriend said try this, but I'm afraid to spend the money because I don't want to... " And I'm like, "Well, sister, if you're looking for a moisturizer like this, you could try this one. If you want one, this made us some organic stuff. Try this. If you want... " We done had a whole 20 minute conversation just on the Target aisle.
Austin Channing Brown:
For me, it almost always starts with money, "Girl, you know these product's expensive?" The last time this happened, so a little sales clerk was like, "Do y'all need any help?" And she was like, "Y'all got any sales going on?"
Amena Brown:
Please.
Austin Channing Brown:
She was like, "Well, I don't see any, but that tea tree oil down there is on sale." And we both looked at each other and laughed.
Amena Brown:
What I'm going to with this is I'ma put a few drops-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:20:18]-
Amena Brown:
... on my scalp and it was-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:20:19]-
Amena Brown:
... what's next?
Austin Channing Brown:
What? [inaudible 00:20:21] don't need a little more [inaudible 00:20:23].
Amena Brown:
Because hair will be out here looking like the top of a cotton swab, right? If all you have is tea tree oil, there is going to be so some struggles.
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:20:37]-
Amena Brown:
I'm like, "My hair need room to breathe. It needs its moisture out here in these streets. I need to provide my hair with the things that my hair needs for this world, okay?" You mentioned in your book a poem that I love by Paul Laurence Dunbar. You mentioned We Wear the Mask and you talked about this quite a bit in your book, which I loved. I want to read We Wear the Mask for anyone here that's never heard this poem and you should know this name, Paul Laurence Dunbar, because he's amazing.
Amena Brown:
This poem We Wear the Mask says we wear the mask that grins and lies. It hides our cheeks and shades our eyes. This debt we pay to human guile with torn and bleeding heart we smile and mouth with myriad subtleties. Why should the world be over-wise in counting all our tears and sighs? Nay, let them only see us while we wear the mask. We smile, but Oh great Christ, our cries to thee from tortured souls arise. We sing, but oh, the clay is vile beneath our feet and long the mile. But let the world dream otherwise, we wear the mask. Oh, it's beautiful and haunting, right?
Austin Channing Brown:
And the fact that this could live over centuries.
Amena Brown:
It's amazing. I'm still reading it like let them only see us while we wear the mask. Paul Laurence Dunbar, speak a word. Some of what I hear in the theme of your book and just your writing your work is this idea that as a Black person that you do not have to wear the mask, which to me lends itself to being unapologetically Black. That there are so many times that many Black people we... Obviously, I joke with my friends all the time, I'm like, "Waking up black every day... Have not woken up a morning that I was not Black, woke up every morning, Black." But sometimes have been Black and apologetic for it. Talk to me about how we can deal with the layers of that mask? How do we... I don't want to say arrive at unapologetically Black. I think that takes time to work through, but how we start working towards that? What would you say?
Austin Channing Brown:
Yeah. I think a big part of this book is my journey towards that, right? When I first read that poem, I was wearing a mask and that's why it was so jarring because it was like, "Whoa! I'm doing this currently right here in this room where I'm the only Black girl in my English class." I just really didn't know what to do with that because I had never really thought about... I didn't have the terms like code-switching and I was just out here living life. I thought, "Man, there's a lot of things that all the folks in this classroom, including the ones that I really like and the folks that I really admire, don't know about my life that other Black students in my gospel choir or at the lunch table or whatever do." So it was really my first time I was like, "Oh, when I'm around white folks what am I protecting?"
Amena Brown:
Which I think is a real thing, right?
Austin Channing Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Amena Brown:
The need to protect versus what am I hiding?
Austin Channing Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's been, still is, it has been a journey to figure out in what spaces can I be unapologetically Black? This is not always safe. And I've been in plenty of jobs and particularly where it wasn't safe, girl.
Amena Brown:
Right. How do you discern when a place is safe to be unapologetically Black or not?
Austin Channing Brown:
This is real rough, but I look for signs. So during an interview, like an interview for a job, girl, I take that thing to a whole new level. I am probably the most Black in an interview because I am just like, "For a double shot on it, just in case." Because I feel like if you can handle the double shot, you can probably handle how Black I actually am.
Amena Brown:
I love this. I love it. I'm Black like I came straight from Wakanda to come straight to this interview. Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
Do you want all of this? Then I tone it down once I actually arrived. I was like, "I got the job. [inaudible 00:25:09]."
Amena Brown:
I love it.
Austin Channing Brown:
I wish that was all that I had pretended to be, but I can't play space to save my life. So I think I'm getting wiser about particularly places where I need to make a long-term commitment, like job. I think for other spaces because I'm in and out of white evangelicals I'm a lot with speaking and preaching and that kind of thing. One has started to ask questions about how they heard about me, what they've read that they really appreciate, to kind of give me an idea of whether or not it's really me if they want or if it's an idea of me that they want.
Amena Brown:
Speak a word. Is it really me they want or is it the idea of me? Speak a word, Austin.
Austin Channing Brown:
Then I started doing other things too. There was a conference I went to recently where there was just a lot of conversation around race. They be doing the most job. And basically a professor had made an assertion that race is not about school issue. Talking about racial justice is like, "Listen, child." And I was like, "Okay." So to the conference planners where this was going to take place, I said, "Do you know what? I need all exits marked. I'ma need to know that security is in the room. I want to know if somebody makes a ruckus while I'm preaching. Which one are you white folks is going to get up and calm everybody down while I go head to seat? You don't want a public apology if something jumps off." You know what I mean?
Austin Channing Brown:
I just had some security measures and if they had written back and been like, "Oh, we don't think that's necessary. We're going to be fine." You know what I'm saying? If they didn't take it seriously, that would have been [inaudible 00:26:55]. So, I can be there via Skype. Would you like to have a Skype [inaudible 00:27:00]?
Amena Brown:
Because when I'm Skype, I'm safe. I can be someplace where I'm safe, so-
Austin Channing Brown:
The foolishness starts, you know what I'm saying?
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
And for that conversation she was like, "Oh my gosh." She's certainly was like, "I don't think anything would happen," but her next sentence was, "Here's your person. Here's... "
Amena Brown:
Thank you.
Austin Channing Brown:
When I arrived, she took me into the space where I was speaking so that I could see where the exits were. She just took it very seriously. So I'd be looking for signs that the white folks around me, the white folks in charge, the white folks who brought me in are taking my safety seriously.
Amena Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's good.
Austin Channing Brown:
And sometimes I don't even make it about race, girlfriend. Sometimes I will even just be like, "You know what? I'm an introvert. I'm not going to be at that reception. I'm going to be at the hotel calling my boo and seeing how my son is doing." You know what I'm saying? And if they write back anything other than, "Oh, of course we completely understand. We're so grateful for your time." You know what I'm saying? If that ain't the response, then I know who I'm dealing with.
Amena Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then all of a sudden you don't have time. Like you might've had time before that, but now you don't have time. Speaking of the ways that you use your voice and platform, which is one of the things that I just love about you as just a person, but I also-
Austin Channing Brown:
Girl, thanks.
Amena Brown:
... learn a lot from you. I will tell y'all, Austin Channing Brown is one of my favorite Twitter follows for a couple of reasons. Number one, because she is not here for the foolishness. I always appreciate that. I just have a strong appreciation for people that are not here for the foolishness, but also Austin, you do something that as a poet I do not do very well. I am a-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:28:50]-
Amena Brown:
... super slow thinker. So-
Austin Channing Brown:
Changer.
Amena Brown:
... a current event might happen and then seven months later I'm like, "[crosstalk 00:29:00]."
Austin Channing Brown:
Shut up.
Amena Brown:
That has made me think about these things that I would like to write in a poem. Whereas the current event will have happened at 9:00 AM. Before 2:00 PM, Austin is on Twitter like a word about the such and such that just happened. Here is a Twitter toolbox for the ways that you can not be about the foolishness that happened this morning at the such and such. Here are some resources where you can think about reading that so that you will not be racist. Here are some things... Austin done gave these people-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:29:39].
Amena Brown:
... the thread. You are-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:29:42]-
Amena Brown:
... always killing the threads every time. I'll be on the thread like, "Yes. Hmm. Oh, that person tried to comment with the foolishness. Oh, Austin, not here for that? Oh, the people that follow Austin are not here for that? Okay. Scroll, scroll, scroll." I'm paying attention. So when you are using your voice in these ways to speak very plainly, very directly, very clearly against racism, against white supremacy... I want to start with, how did you know this is going to be a part of my messaging as a communicator? Because some people believe that those of us who are communicators, writers, speakers, artists, that really we create all these things, but underneath them, some people would say underneath them is really all the same message. That some people finding your calling is like that's what's underneath their message.
Amena Brown:
It really doesn't matter how many different retreats workshops, whatever they do, they're still coming back to sort of that message. And this seems to be one of those for you that we can, not only use our voices, but take action against racism and white supremacy. Do you feel like when you look back at your upbringing, you were always like, "This is the person that I was going to become and using my voice for this?" Or did another moment come in your life where you were like, "This is what I need to... If I'm going to put pen to paper, I need to write about this." If I'm going to be on Twitter-"
Austin Channing Brown:
Such a [crosstalk 00:31:13] question.
Amena Brown:
"... I need to tweet about this?" Did you have a moment like that this epiphany or did it just slowly evolve in a way for you?
Austin Channing Brown:
Being a communicator is something that I was just aware of as a child. I remember being a kid and when teachers very first start to ask questions about like what do you think questions, what do you think about this book, what do you think of... Right? I can remember raising my hand and my other classmates telling the teacher to call on me. You know what I mean?
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
Just really weird. I don't think that's normal. And my dad has this video. My dad used to do the camera for Sunday services to record Sunday services back in the VHS days.
Amena Brown:
Come on, VHS.
Austin Channing Brown:
So he would have to go early on Saturday mornings to set up the video camera and make sure everything was working properly. And he has this video of me I have no idea where it is, girl, but he has a video of me somewhere where I opened the hymn book and started reading it as if I was standing. Now we in the balcony, but I was reading it as if I was standing in the pulpit reading the Bible.
Amena Brown:
I love it. I'm here for it.
Austin Channing Brown:
So being a communicator has just always been in me and I've been very aware of it. I became a minister when I was 14. Became [inaudible 00:32:36] when I was 19, but it was in college when I really started to find my particular niche around justice and really developing that passion. So by that time that Twitter rolled around, I was not an early adopter of Twitter. And truth be told, the only reason I got on Twitter was because I had started my blog. One of my girlfriends was like, "Austin, I need to be able to share your blog via Twitter. I need you to be on Twitter so I can tag you and share this good blog." I was like, "I don't really get it. Isn't it just people talking about what they did all day?"
Amena Brown:
Same.
Austin Channing Brown:
I don't need to know who ate a chicken sandwich today. I just don't... How's this going to enrich my life? I don't understand. I really didn't get it. I don't understand Twitter at all, but I don't mind because I was like, "She said she needed me to... " So I was like, "Okay, cool." I fell in love with the Twitters. I like the challenge of it, particularly when it was still 140 characters. And I loved how concise I could be in a way that is very difficult honestly for me to be in person. So when I go somewhere and speak inevitably, child, somebody will walk up to me and be like, "That was not as hard as... " They searching for the word, but what they really trying to say is, "You are a lot nicer than I thought you'd be."
Amena Brown:
I'm nice, but I'm not nice about white supremacy. Get that straight and bring me some sweet tea.
Austin Channing Brown:
But I liked that about writing in general. I think it was where I figured that out that I liked that I can say the hard things because people are reading. You know what I mean? I'm not standing in nobody's face like, "You won't get rid of that white supremacy today." You know what I'm saying?
Amena Brown:
Right.
Austin Channing Brown:
I ain't doing no exorcisms, but when I write... People have a chance to process. They have a chance to... There's an emotional removal because I'm not standing in front of you. So it just feels like a space where I can be unadulterated in what I'm thinking and saying and just let the reader deal with that, handle that. I am drawn to folks who appreciate that. I am drawn to folks who are like, "Yes, give me more of that," or, "Oh, I didn't know that term. I'm so glad I have that term now" Or, "Dang! You just put language to how I was feeling and I couldn't explain it, but now that I have read this I'm like that's exactly it." So that's how I really fell in love with Twitter and decided to go a little harder in my writing than I do when I'm in person.
Amena Brown:
I want to give a special shout-out to your girlfriend that number one told you to blog and number two told you to get on Twitter. She is going to be a recipient of the She Did That award because we are appreciative that she encouraged you to do this. So-
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:35:35] I started any of this is because of a girlfriend. There was a girlfriend who told me I need to start a blog. There was the girlfriend who told me I had to be on Twitter. There was a girlfriend who took me to a meeting that she had with an editor and was like, "Yo, this girl, come write here too." Everything is because of a girlfriend.
Amena Brown:
I love that, Austin. I love it because I have such a great community of girlfriends too. I love those moments when I might text you out of the blue and be like, "Girl, such and such and such and such. What you think saying?" And we can just... Or those times that we see each other and you can just connect. But I love in particular when we can have a community of girlfriends that are sometimes seeing us-
Austin Channing Brown:
Far.
Amena Brown:
... listen past what we can see in ourselves that would push, push, push to be like, "Sis, you need to do this and you need to do that. Why don't you do this? Why are you not charging this?" Having girlfriends who are like that.
Austin Channing Brown:
I'm not even going to tell y'all how Amena be beating me up over ticket prices and what I need to be charging for stuff. I'm not even going to tell you. I'm just going to let that slide because Amena be-
Amena Brown:
[crosstalk 00:36:44]-
Austin Channing Brown:
"Get your girl." She be, "Getting your girl. I just want you to know." But that's what girlfriends are for, to remind you of how much you're worth.
Amena Brown:
Speak. Yes. Price is also going up for Austin Channing Brown next year. Okay. [crosstalk 00:36:57]. Whatever Amena is saying, I'm just letting y'all know. So I want to ask about your book process. You get to the point where you are like, "I'm going to write a book," but you obviously have this choice. You could write about anything you want. You could write in any form that you want, even with some of the content that you wrote about. It could have been more of a how to, it could have been more of something that we're going to be very research-based, but you chose the form of the memoir. I just feel endeared to that because I love to read memoir.
Amena Brown:
And it's also a similar forum that I chose for my book because I was sort of sitting at the beginning of that book process like, "What do I really have in my hand? I have that I'm a storyteller. I have that most strongly. And I would rather lean towards that and see what stories will come out." What was that moment like for you where you had the choice of form and you had the choice of content? How did you decide you would do the memoir and you would do the memoir sort of through this lens of black dignity?
Austin Channing Brown:
I actually pitched this book five years ago. At least five years, but I've lost track now. But pre-Black Lives Matter, pre-Ta-Nehisi Coates, pre-all this stuff that makes up our daily live experience right now, and child, those posters were like, "This whole book is about a white girl who touched your hair. Was you standing on a cliff when that happened? Did you almost get pushed off?" [inaudible 00:38:31] like, "Where is the life and death experience?" And I was, "Oh, okay." So child, by the time I circled back to running to print a book and having an agent and get my little proposal together, I must have written four or five proposals.
Amena Brown:
Wow.
Austin Channing Brown:
Were out trying on different voices like you just said, like, "Is this going to be the how to, is this going to be filled with research?" And child, I was like... I would get started and I would be like, "Hmm. But I am not a historian" Then I would scrap that and start a new one, I'd be like, "Ooh, but I'm not a theologian." So I was, "Scrap that." You know what I mean? But I'm not an academic. I don't even know how to cite this. [inaudible 00:39:15].
Amena Brown:
What cites?
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:39:18]-
Amena Brown:
Bring that word back. Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
I got nothing. You know what I really did? Was I went back through my blog and took note of all the posts that I enjoyed writing and were popular.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, that's good. That's a good balance, popular and the things you enjoyed writing.
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:39:40]-
Amena Brown:
It's like [inaudible 00:39:41].
Austin Channing Brown:
And one of them was a post that's not super long than I did on Dajerria Becton when... She was the Black girl who got tossed around by the police at the swimming pool. I started that out by pretending that I was in the room when she was getting her hair braided. [inaudible 00:40:03] got her sitting between her auntie's knees and hearing the click of her aunties fingernails, braiding her hair down and how she got up and stretched and how they took a break and did whatever. No, danced around their room together. And then said... She got dressed for this pool party that she was all excited about that she got her hair braided for. And all of a sudden she was on the ground in the grass with a police officer in her back.
Austin Channing Brown:
Girl, that post just came out like just my connection to her as another Black girl just made that so easy to write emotional, but not how to write. And it was one of my most popular blog posts. That was when the light bulb went on like, "Oh, when I marry these small experiences that most black women can identify with, right? To these larger social issues, that's when I've struck gold." So ultimately that's what I ended up trying to do. Then when Coates came out and I was like, "Oh, well, if we can write about being a Black man from the hood, I think we should be able to be right about being a Black girl surrounded by white folks." That's what I think.
Amena Brown:
Speak a word.
Austin Channing Brown:
That's what I think. So it really did unfold, but it was a long process job. I easily spent a year just writing proposals, trying to figure out who I am as a writer.
Amena Brown:
I think I spent a long time on proposals too because part of the proposal process is this like, "What's my voice? Or, "What am I anticipating my voice is going to be" Because I have to say, even what I sent in as my proposal was in theory what this was going be. But how the book actually came out, that was its own thing. When I sat down to actually write the book and was like, "Oh, you don't want to be that thing that I wrote in here? You want to be something else." So I need to let you be yourself while I learn to be myself. It was an interesting-
Austin Channing Brown:
That's real.
Amena Brown:
... interesting relationship with your book and with how in particular... And you'll have to tell me if this is your experience too, in particular when you are writing these personal stories of your own life experience. That there are some ways that writing healed me, like sealed up some places where I had been wounded. There were some places where it changed me, totally transformed me in some ways that I just couldn't even account for until the book had been out. And I was like, "I'm somebody different than I was when I first sat down to figure out what this was going to be." I mean, I know we're right here as your book is launching, but do you feel some of that sort of transformation in you as a writer in your voice? Do you feel any of that as you're thinking back now on the writing process of your book?
Austin Channing Brown:
I did because I think my voice was very teachery before... Because I had been doing workshops and even if you look, I haven't deleted any of my blog posts. If you go back to the very beginning, they're very teacherisk. And like, "Here's step one," or, "Here's a great metaphor for how to think about this. Come along on the journey." And girl, the closer we get to Black Lives Matter, the more that disappears. You know what I mean? But [crosstalk 00:43:30]-
Amena Brown:
You're about to get no steps there.
Austin Channing Brown:
But then when writing the book, I think what was transformative for me was making declarative sentences because I had to think about whether or not I would still be standing by those declarative sentences a year from now or two years from now or three years from now. So I want to give myself grace in that there may be things in this book that I decided to change 10 years from now and be like, "You know what? That's what I thought then." But I have grown, I have evolved. But on a whole I had to really ask myself, "Do I find white people exhausting? Yes I do." And that just had to be a sentence in the book, but it was that declarative sentence like, "This is what I think today. I'm knowing what I know." Right? "Knowing what I know, this is what I think today." That was transformative for me to think about what I believe, what I'm willing to declare.
Amena Brown:
I love the way you're describing that declarative moment because I think that is also a moment of reminding ourselves of our dignity when we are able to make these statements with no equivocations, with no apologies that this is what it is, this is how it happened, how it happens. Like this. Period. And let the space be there.
Austin Channing Brown:
Exactly.
Amena Brown:
There's a lot of power to that. I want to ask along those lines, you have a whole chapter on creative anger in this book, which I love so much because within the last month in my various conversations with black women, some of it has been with just professionally other women who are author speaker, performer world. And some of it has just been with girlfriends and there are so many moments that the phrase, "Well, I was going to do this," or, "I was going to say this, but I didn't want to be that Angry Black Woman.
Austin Channing Brown:
Yeah, Angry Black Woman.
Amena Brown:
I used to fight against it like, "Hey, I am not that Angry Black Woman. I can communicate these things and do these things without roaring about everything. I can do it." And now I'm like, "Sometimes I am Angry Black Woman and I have a right to be angry."
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:46:04]-
Amena Brown:
It is not wrong or bad for me to be angry and for me to express my anger. So yes, sometimes an Angry Black Woman and sometimes I'm hurt and I'm disappointed. And that by itself makes me mad about whatever the injustice is that has happened. But it's interesting to me that many of us as Black women are still trying to-
Austin Channing Brown:
Undo that.
Amena Brown:
Yes, to undo that thing that we learned. I loved that in this chapter... Which I want y'all to check out Austin's book because you talked about how that anger can be useful. I love just the idea of creative anger. Talk to me more about that.
Austin Channing Brown:
Yeah. In college I was definitely that girl who was... I don't think I ever, ever thought about myself as being angry. It wasn't even that I put anger away, it was just so communicated to me that you have to speak in a certain way in order for white folks to hear you that I totally bypassed my own emotional needs and went right to, "Okay. Well, getting this fixed is more important, right? So let me go ahead and talk about maybe how much I'm hurting or... " You know what I mean? Like, "Let me be sad," or like, "Let me try on any other emotion basically other than anger since anger will be dismissed." And I'd be angry.
Amena Brown:
Sis.
Austin Channing Brown:
I'd be angry.
Amena Brown:
Rightfully so.
Austin Channing Brown:
Rightfully so. That was something that I had been thinking about again, especially through Black Lives Matter and all these videos and the number of times that I find myself angry on a very regular basis. I was like, "You know what? I think I'm kind of intimate with my anger. We spent a lot of time together. We'd be sitting on the couch and things." So-
Amena Brown:
Yes. Anger, would you like some popcorn?
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 00:47:56]-
Amena Brown:
Come here, Anger, get you a snack.
Austin Channing Brown:
So I picked up Sister Outsider, which is a book that I had been meaning to read forever. Finally got around to it and got to uses of anger, the essay called uses of anger and I was like, "Ahh, what?" when I say revelation... And I'm almost ashamed to be like, "It was a revelation," but it was. I'm going to just be honest, it was a revelation to me when Audre Lorde says... And forgive me for paraphrasing here. But when she says anger is evidence that an injustice has occurred. Anger is evidence that something's not right here and it can be fueled when channeled correctly. It can be fueled for making things right. And I was like, "[inaudible 00:48:52]."
Austin Channing Brown:
I had to really pause and think about how many things Black folks, Black women create that started off with anger. You know what I'm saying? I'm real upset that all these Black girl ballerinas out here wearing nude whatever ain't nude for them, you know what I'm saying? Somebody got a little upset. So some Black girls said, "You know what? We going to fix that? We going to get some Black girl new jade's, that's what we going to do." You know what I'm saying?
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Austin Channing Brown:
There's so many things. I just be like, "I'm tired of being left out. I'm tired of being unseen. I'm tired." Right? The whole Black Lives Matter organizing is essentially rooted in anger and not just anger of and dignity and a whole lot of other things. But [inaudible 00:49:48] I'm about to sit here and pretend like we wasn't and also angry about Trayvon and about Zimmerman getting off. You know what I'm saying? We ain't going to sit around here and pretend anger doesn't also fuel action. So I think about anger very, very differently.
Austin Channing Brown:
And even when I wrote that chapter, girl, I started to try to document even in my own life things that I did that initially were out of anger. Which [inaudible 00:50:17] I wrote that were initially out of anger, what groups I started on my college campus because I was angry about something that happened, what meetings I attended because we were angry about an injustice or a crisis or... You know what I'm saying? I was like, "My life is filled with examples of the usefulness of anger, but [inaudible 00:50:39] need Audre Lorde in order to bring that into my conscience.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. It's so powerful. I think it's so powerful to be able to take something that we learn to diminish, that we learn to compartmentalize it. And even the image of you saying like, "Me and anger are friends. We hang out or we... "
Austin Channing Brown:
Yes, we do.
Amena Brown:
Sort of we get to invite these parts of ourselves that we were told to shut out and shut down and not acknowledge and not love. That we [crosstalk 00:51:13]-
Austin Channing Brown:
Well, because the first thing we're told, especially as Black women, is that we're being divisive, that we're not being unifying, that this is the opposite of love, right? The world is quick to tell us why our anger is destructive and only destructive. So it was a real gift to my life for Audre to say to me, not so. It could be if you allow it to be. It could be, but it doesn't have to be. Your anger is not inherently bad.
Amena Brown:
That's so good and so healing. Hearing you repeat that right now, it's healing for me to hear and I think it's going to be healing for so many people listening to. One of the things I wanted to bring up that I loved in your book is you described justice work as holy. I love that because it's so true. It's so true if we are in whatever arena space, whatever area we find ourselves in, if we are using our voice, using our resources, using our influence to help see justice in particular for people who have been marginalized and have been oppressed that that is holy work. I think that's so important.
Austin Channing Brown:
It's so transformative. I mean, it transforms you, it transforms the other, it transforms our relationships. It transforms your worldview. It transforms your theology. Nothing stays the same. It is such holy intimate work because it forces you to ask some new questions about yourself, about your people, about your God, about your community. I think that's what... So I used to lead short-term mission trips on the West side of Chicago and, child, I did my best to shed some light. And it was mostly teenagers. I had this one parent who... We used to give out surveys at the end and I was going through the surveys and all the surveys said parent or child or whatever. So the parent had written, this was really interesting, but I'm concerned that you have opened Pandora's box for my child.
Amena Brown:
Huh?
Austin Channing Brown:
I was like-
Amena Brown:
Did I open it or-
Austin Channing Brown:
Interesting.
Amena Brown:
... [crosstalk 00:53:47] open? I'm trying to-
Austin Channing Brown:
Right. And, girl, I couldn't even be offended, right? That seems like a really accurate metaphor. It is [inaudible 00:53:57]. Your child is going to be asking all kinds of new questions, your child is going to look at the news differently, your child is going to listen to the pastor differently, your child is going to be sitting at your dining room table asking some new questions like you're right. I think I did just open the Pandora's box.
Amena Brown:
Then you were like, "Good luck with that."
Austin Channing Brown:
[inaudible 00:54:17]. See you next summer. But I continue to be intrigued by the ways that I am changed by the work that I do, by the people that I encounter, by this new language, by the ways of reading the word, the prayers that I pray. I understand why people resist it. I understand why people resist and I understand why other folks try to contain it so that it's only gender justice or only justice for black folks or only... You know what I mean?
Amena Brown:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Austin Channing Brown:
Honestly because justice for one eventually invites the question justice for who else. And it becomes transformative very, very quickly. So I do. I think it is really the holy work.
Amena Brown:
The title of your book being I'm Still Here, which I love that, and something about being here is being present. It's being whole. It is fighting for justice and joy. What does your process look like to remain whole as sometimes you're speaking such a direct truth to people and sometimes you may be in a space where you're saying that truth to someone who has not been willing to let that in and that makes them act out because they don't even... They're like, "Well, I don't know how to process that," or, "I'm thinking I might know how and I don't want to, so this is how I respond to that."
Amena Brown:
I have this two-part question. One, how in the face of that, in the face of even when you're on Twitter you're speaking about things that happen repeatedly, you're watching what happens to the Black body in violence repeatedly, how do you find wholeness and healing as this a part of your work as a practitioner? Then what would you say for black people and maybe people of color in general that are in predominantly white space that are facing racism every day, that are facing some head-on aggressions every day? How can Black people and people of color remain whole and healed in the process too?
Austin Channing Brown:
I think the first answer for me personally changes based on the season and based on what's happening. I know that's like cheating, but I'm learning it's the truth. I'm a human being. So my son was just born about seven months ago and my ability to read headlines has declined sharply or all I can read is the headline. I have a vague idea of what's happening, but I cannot open the story. I can't watch the video. I can't do it. I'm so tender right now and spending so much time thinking about his life and his future and what I want for him. And it's too closely linked, you know what I mean? To like read that story and to try to resist the thought that I might have to insert my son's name in that story. It's too close right now.
Austin Channing Brown:
So I find myself staying aware of what's happening, but not diving into it right now. Knowing that there are other Black women and other Black folks who can, who [inaudible 00:57:56] space and who do have. And so part of it is realizing that I'm not the only voice out here speaking about racial injustice. You know what I mean? There are other times when... Like when Dajerria Becton happened, I just cried and that's just what my body needed. My body just needed to cry and I needed to be honest about my connection to the offense that she suffered as she lay on that ground and cried for her mother in embarrassment and in shame and in healing. I just so connected with that sound in her voice, right? That desperation in her voice for that to come to an end, for somebody to come rescue her, for somebody to come protect her. So in that instance all I could do was cry.
Austin Channing Brown:
Obviously writing is often how I try and process and make sense and reassert dignity. After Charleston, I had to go back to my home church because I was so devastated by my fear of walking into a church that I was like, "You know what? I'm not even just going to go to any church." That day I went to our church. That weekend, that following weekend, I went back to my home church with my father. So it's spending a lot of time being self-aware. I think if I had to boil down, being aware of what I need, being aware of how much of the pain I can contain and then figuring out how to release that, whether that's through writing or through a conversation with a girlfriend or finding each other on Twitter. You know what I mean? I feel like we've figured out some new ways to take each other.
Austin Channing Brown:
I can't even remember which verdict it was, but I remember Black Twitter was basically like, "Okay, so all day today while we were waiting for this verdict, we going to drink water, we going to have tissues ready." Do you know what I mean? But there was a checklist. We all knew we was going to be sitting in front of the TV waiting for this verdict to come through. So I just really appreciate the ways that we're learning how to process through this and not just pretending we're immune from the work. Then for the second half of your question, so I have this small, teeny-tiny little section in the book called How to Survive Racism at an Organization that Claims to be Antiracist.
Amena Brown:
Speak a word today, Austin. Speak a word.
Austin Channing Brown:
Because so often... First of all, we do be trying to vet the organizations and figure out who's for real about this inclusion life and we still get disappointed because it's racism even at these organizations that claim to want antiracism and racial [inaudible 01:00:35] and whatever they want to call it. And it's love out here. So a few things that come to mind, one is to not go into the organization believing that you have to change everything. Because there's something about even that language where... Because we want to participate, right? We want to participate in change. We want to be a part of movements. We want to be a part of doing something good. So when folks start using that language, we get really attracted to it and then find out that it's all on us and that ain't right. That ain't right. It ain't right. That ain't the way to change an organization.
Austin Channing Brown:
So that would be another one I would say to spend your first year trying to find your allies. Don't do nothing [inaudible 01:01:23] until you figure out who your allies really are, who's coming at good funding who called you when the latest crisis happened, who brought you some food, who wrote a post on their own website, who goes hard on Facebook. You know what I'm saying? Who is out [inaudible 01:01:44] really living this life that you can connect with so that you're not doing this work by yourself, right? And build up your little coalition so that you're not alone. And if you find that you are alone, I'ma need you to get out.
Amena Brown:
They want you to be in this sunken place, right?
Austin Channing Brown:
Don't be in this sunken place y'all please. Now that comes with a game plan, right? Most of us can not just be out here quitting our jobs when somebody makes us upset. I understand that. That's not what I'm saying, but there is no such thing as an exit strategy. How many for you to be out here looking for this new job is going to be thinking about this entrepreneurship life? I'ma [inaudible 01:02:22] you to be... Every organization ain't like the one you in, so maybe we can hop over to somebody else who's starting networking stuff. Where might you be safer? Where might you just be more safe and being ready and willing to move? Especially with our generation, child, we ain't about to retire from no place after being there for 30-some years. That's not the life we live in.
Austin Channing Brown:
And since that's the reality right now that comes with some hard things too, but the beautiful thing about that is that you can move. That's not unusual. That's not weird. Ain't nobody going to look at your resume and be like, "Oh, you ain't work no place for 20 years. I don't know what to expect all that." So it gives some freedom too that if you can see that the organization has gone as far as it's willing to go or you are being too harmed, then it might be time to make that move.
Amena Brown:
Oh, that's some good advice. Come through. Well, Austin, please tell the people, first of all, how they can get ahold to this book because the book is out now? I know y'all can't see me, but I'm doing my out now hands. I'm blinking my hands out now. You can get this book wherever the books be at.
Austin Channing Brown:
[inaudible 01:03:36] books. Yeah, wherever-
Amena Brown:
So where can people get these things?
Austin Channing Brown:
[crosstalk 01:03:41] get your book.
Amena Brown:
Where can they learn more about you as well if they want to follow you and learn more from you as well as access this book? What are the things? Tell me the things.
Austin Channing Brown:
So any place you like to get your books, please feel free to get this book. I personally would love if you asked your local independent bookstore to bring this book in or order it from them. That would be amazing. But if you got to get your Amazon on, you know what I'm saying? Do you, boo. Then I've got that good website, austinchanning.com. Then we already talked about how much I love the Twitters, which is @austinchanning. I also do have Instagram also @austinchanning. Then my Facebook is my whole name, Austin Channing Brown.
Amena Brown:
This week's edition of Give Her A Crown, a segment in which I like to give a shout-out to a woman of color that is inspiring me doing amazing work in the world. This week I want to give a special shout-out to Tamika Mallory. I want to give her a crown because as we are watching such a needed and continued global uprising happen in America as a part of the Black Lives Matter movement and as a part of seeing racial justice happen for Black people in America. Tamika Mallory is one of the voices and leaders at the front line of this movement. She is using her voice, using her body to community organized, to be an activist. I want to give a shout-out to her organization Until Freedom.
Amena Brown:
If you are looking for an organization to give to that is doing frontline justice work, to not only ensure that all black lives matter, but especially to ensure that the names of the Black women and Black trans women whose lives have been lost as well are continued to be uplifted and that justice is served for them as well. So, Tamika Mallory, let's give her a crown. HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.