Amena Brown:
Hey everybody, it's another episode of HER with Amena Brown, and y'all, we are episode 10 this week, y'all have been rocking with me for 10 weeks. I just want to thank you. Give a hand to yourselves, I just want to thank you, don't do that if you're driving a car right now. But when you're not driving, give yourself a hand. Thank you, thank you so much for listening, being here in the HER living room, engaging with me. And please know, I post about each of these episodes on social media. So, if you are on social media and you are not following me there yet, I would love to see you there. And you can comment and let me know how you are digging the conversations we're having here.
Amena Brown:
And I want to give a special shout out to my people that have been listening before the podcast relaunched, my OG HER listeners, I want to say a big thank you to all of you for your support during this time. 10 weeks y'all I'm so proud of us. Also, I'm tired. Are y'all tired? Are y'all tired, because it's just a bone deep weariness and fatigue that I experience. And I know I'm not alone. I know that y'all are tired too. Because honestly we are now at the beginning of the last month of 2020, and we have survived a gang, gang, gang of things this year. We are yet in a global pandemic. We are yet in the middle of a global uprising. We have experienced a lot of upheaval especially for us here in the States in our politics, in our election processes. Not to mention just all whatever personal stuff you might have going on in your life. Y'all, I'm tired, and I know some of y'all are tired, too.
Amena Brown:
And I wanted to start off this episode by speaking to that because I was thinking about the word recovery this week. And as a person who has had some really challenging health stuff come up in my life in the last five or seven years, and I think I've talked on here already about this, and if I haven't, I'm sure I'll talk about it some more. I had to have a very major procedure a few years ago, and after the procedure, I had six to eight weeks of recovery, right? And since then, every now and then, I will have to have an outpatient procedure, which is not as intense as the surgery was. But the outpatient procedures still require a certain amount of days of recovery. And I want us to applaud ourselves and give ourselves kudos for making it through what has probably been collectively, for a lot of us, one of the most challenging years that we've had, personally and collectively, just as our various communities.
Amena Brown:
Even those of you that may be listening that don't live here in the States and whatever country where you live, we've experienced a lot of challenges this year. And that's not even to mention whatever other things you may have just going on in your life as an individual. And I think it's important to allow ourselves space and time to recover. And I know, I know, this time of year is not always a great time of year to recover because even though we are in a pandemic, people have still found ways to fill our social calendars to the hilt with all of the Zoom happy hours that may get converted over into Zoom holiday parties and different things that become sort of a part of our schedules around this time of the year. Some of you I know have children, and all of the things that go along with that with the close of the school year and different things for those of you that celebrate the holidays. You have the holiday season and all that that requires, and some of us trying to figure out creative ways we're going to engage with our families this year, or some of us figuring out creative ways not to engage with our families, depending on the situation, right?
Amena Brown:
And I try to think about this every time this season comes around. I try to think about ways to not get myself on this train of busyness and inevitably there's always some way that the busyness overtook me anyway. But I really, this year, for myself, and I wanted to say this to all of you, it's okay for you to be tired right now. It's okay that you feel weary. It's okay that you feel worn out or spent. I want to hold space for those of you listening that just feel numb, that you've gotten to a place where you just almost don't have the capacity to feel anything because of all of the highs and lows that we've experienced during this time. And I want to encourage you, and I want to encourage myself, let's find some ways to give ourselves some recovery time this month. What does that look like? I don't know. That's going to look different for each of us, but it may look like telling some people no. It may look like some of the invitations that you get to do this or that, just saying, "No, I'm not going to do that," or, "No, our family's not going to do that."
Amena Brown:
It may also mean you're going to disappoint some people. That's a theme that we've discussed here in our HER living room that sometimes, other people may be disappointed. But even though we disappoint them, we are taking care of ourselves when we do that. And it's important for us to care for ourselves during this time. And one of the things that I love about this holiday season that we celebrate, and that we celebrate it during this beginning time of winter, one of the things I love about that is, we're starting to experience even the stillness of the seasons, right? We're getting to the end of fall. We've seen the leaves fall, for those of you that live in areas where you get a chance to see the trees do that. Some of you live in spaces where you're already experiencing snow and ice. But let's take some time for stillness. Let's take some time for recovery. Let's take some time to watch some movies that you love, to think about what are the things that refuel you? What are the things that make you feel alive?
Amena Brown:
For some of us, it could be what are the things that are really going to get you back in touch with yourself? For those of us that have gotten to a place where we just don't feel anything or don't even have the capacity to feel anything, what are the things you can do to get yourself back in touch with who you are, and back in touch with what you love? Think about some people that when you talk to them, and you finish texting them, or you hang up the phone, or whatever way you communicate, and you always feel more alive after you talk to them. Or you always feel more full of joy. And how can you get time with more of those people? And for those of you that refuel yourself by having time alone, or having time in the quiet, in the silence, what are some ways you can incorporate that in your life more? Is it maybe taking a drive by yourself? Even if it's just running an errand, right?
Amena Brown:
Shout out to some of my parents that are listening, that that time is inevitably going to be in the bathroom for you, because that's the one place you know you can go. And at least try to avoid your children or some of the other people in your house, to have a moment to yourself. For those of my people that love holiday decorations, maybe you have your Christmas tree or your tinsel, your wreaths, whatever your stuff is, how you like to acknowledge. Whether it's the holiday or I know, some of you even love to acknowledge the Winter Solstice, right? What are some ways you can sit in the room where your candles are and turn some of the lights down, and just be in a space to think about where you are now. Think about some of the hard stuff of this year has taught you.
Amena Brown:
What can you do to bring some joy back into your space? Are there comedians that you can watch? Are there family members or friends that can help you be reminded of the joy in your life? So, I just wanted to hold space for that at the beginning of this episode. I want you to know if you're tired, if you're weary, you are not alone. There are many of us who are feeling that same fatigue. And let's get some rest. Let's put that on our agenda. Some of us can have a holiday party of one sometimes, if we need to, okay? Just be reminded that it's okay for us to have some time to recover. That when we recover, we rest, we heal. We are reminded about what matters to us. And it is from that type of centeredness, from that type of groundedness, that we can move forward and see what are the other possibilities in our life. So take care of yourself, and let's take care of each other.
Amena Brown:
This week, in an interview from the HER Archives, joining me in our living room is disabled activist, podcast, and founder/director of the Disability Visibility Project, Alice Wong. Listen in as Alice talks about how her creative work informs her activism. Check it out. I always clap, Alice. Thank you for joining me.
Alice Wong:
Well, thank you for having me, I'm delighted.
Amena Brown:
So, as Alice and I were just chit chatting before I started recording this, we almost just jumped into a whole. I was like, "Let me just press record."
Alice Wong:
We just fell right into it, as wonderful creative people just do.
Amena Brown:
That's so right. And actually, I was introduced to you on Twitter, Alice. That's how I started following you and learning more about Disability Visibility Project. And I really have been, I don't know if it's still considered lurking on Twitter, but we used to use that term for other online things when you were just on there in a message board or whatever, and you're not talking there, but you're reading everything, right? So, I've been lurking through a lot of your Twitter threads and different Twitter conversations and Twitter parties that you've been having, and just have learned so much from you, Alice. And so, I'm really honored to have you.
Alice Wong:
I lurk as well. As you know, Twitter can be a real dumpster fire, right? It's horrible, the trolling, the harassment, but on the flip side, this is where I learn a lot from a lot of people. I'm constantly amazed by the about of labor in terms of education and wisdom. People just telling their truth in their own words is such a public media that I'm constantly learning and just shook, it's just amazing. So just like you I think I've found and followed lots of interesting people and I think it's still, there's a lot of value despite all the things that are not so great about it.
Amena Brown:
That's true because there are quite a few things that we're like, "Oh gosh, that's terrible about Twitter." But I have to say one of the opportunities that we have on a platform like Twitter is we have an opportunity to choose the people that we follow. It's not the same as how Facebook was when you've added a person and now there's a mutual connection between you. Sometimes you might be following people, they may not even be following you back or even know who you are at all, but you're getting a chance to get this window into some things that you could learn from them. And I think too, and we'll talk about this more when we get to hear more about some of the online community that you've been building, but I think a part of it that's been good for me is putting myself in the posture to listen. Especially if I am sitting from a privileged place, getting a chance to just listen, it's not time for me to talk. It's not a conversation for me to add to, it's not my conversation. It's for me to read, listen, learn, support, do those things. So I really appreciate you, Alice, and I'm glad you are on the podcast to tell us all the things I'm hoping I won't keep you here for three hours. And you're like, "Listen..."
Alice Wong:
That's it, I like you but I don't like, like you.
Amena Brown:
Right. To be clear.
Alice Wong:
Listen, I got to hydrate.
Amena Brown:
That's right. That's right. That's right. Hydration is important. That is right.
Alice Wong:
We can always do a follow up one.
Amena Brown:
That's true, okay that's true. So I'll see how far I get Alice and if it gets to where it's getting long here, I may just have to do a follow-up with you.
Alice Wong:
Restrain yourself.
Amena Brown:
Thank you. I will. I'm gonna work on it. I'm gonna work on it, girl.
Alice Wong:
I will do as well. I will try.
Amena Brown:
I want to ask you, I love to ask each guest an origin story and one of the things that I find really inspiring about you as a leader and as a creative is I start reading your bio and it's like, I've already gone to five different links of things that you've made or created or co-created or spearheaded. You are a very prolific person, when you think about young Alice, do you have moments you can think of when you were young that you're like, "I started out being a creative person early on in life."
Alice Wong:
Well, I will say there's two stories. In Kindergarten I remember we had a project where our teacher had all these wallpaper samples and we were supposed to create a book out of these wallpaper samples as our cover for our book. There was this really beautiful shiny piece of wallpaper that was silvery, aqua blue, it had all these waves. And I remember my eyes just went right toward it and I was inspired by that cover because I thought, "I'm going to write a book about fish." And then I just made these illustrations and that was where I think maybe that gem of writing and creating something, you see colors and designs, maybe that's where it started. But I think at the heart of it I've always been really into writing in terms of telling my own stories, making up stories. And I think I'm just happy because as a disabled child there were a lot of times growing up where I couldn't participate with a lot of the other kids. I didn't play at the playground at recess, there were a lot of activities, and I grew up the 70's and 80's that still had a lot of access issues.
Alice Wong:
So I was really off on the sidelines and nobody thought that it was wrong for this to happen, okay? So, even I didn't even realize it was a problem, I was always that way. And so I had a lot of time on my hands and there were a lot of times where I just had my imagination, that was my friend, and I think that that's still one of the biggest assets in terms of growing up disabled in a non disabled world, having that perspective and that imagination, and time to really think and have a creativity in terms of imagining what else could be. So, I think that's how I became a creative person, I'm not really too sure. I guess other people would have to, people would tell me, would have to give their own two sense.
Amena Brown:
I love that because I think it's some of the phrasing that you used I think was really interesting when you talked about part of you having an imagination as a disabled child is what was giving you this ability to imagine what could be. And I think the more we talk about your work as an activist and as a creator, there's so much of that showing up in your work that a part of how what you're doing is showing up in the world. It's creating things, it's thinking about what could be and making those things so that there are more spaces in the world where the way we imagine it could be, could actually be, which is really powerful, right?
Alice Wong:
Yeah and I think as a kid I've always been a real nerd, I love science fiction. And I think libraries were really my home so books were I think an escape, a form of liberation for me. I mean I felt so alive, so engaged, you know, through reading and it didn't matter that I couldn't go on a camping trip or it didn't matter that I was left out of this activity because through my imagination and through reading I could go anywhere and that to me was incredibly radical and liberatory. And books like the Chronicles of Narnia, Octavia Butler.
Amena Brown:
Yes, Octavia! Yes!
Alice Wong:
Oh I mean my mind melted. In high school when I discovered, oh I was like, "O-M-G." That was life changing to me. Books really open your world and worlds. These multiverses and I think A Wrinkle in Time. I think a child that was for so many people that was a gateway and I am always indebted I think to science fiction and fantasy writers to really give us a sense of there is the real world but if we don't think about what can be, it'll never happen. And that's why I love Star Trek and they said ideas gives us hope, and a sense of optimism, and something to look forward to or something to keep fighting for.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you this, would you say that being a reader growing up inspired you to also become a writer? Because that's a part of my story too, that I grew up a very introverted kid. So I mean, still today, I sometimes go to public functions and think that I might enjoy reading a book better than being there talking to people. But there was something about my mom and my grandma both being people who love to read and so there were a lot of those trips to the library and getting the max amount of books that I could check out and seeing how quickly I could get them read between then and when you had to check them back in. And I realize now, although I don't know if I knew this as a child, but I realize now there was something about the reading that made me want to become a writer because I looked at just the power of what a writer could do.
Amena Brown:
One of my favorite series was the Choose Your Own Adventure books. I mean, I'm so glad they're back in print now because for a while they went out of print, but I loved those books. Just that someone could think, not just of one story, but could write a book that had like 76 different endings, that made me want to try writing. Was that your story too? That it's the reading that led you to also want to write?
Alice Wong:
Absolutely. I think just the huge spectrum of storytelling and what's out there it obviously, I think also, I don't know about you, but I did the summer reading programs at the library where you get stickers. I mean, that was part of my summers and just growing up and just really loving like I remember loving Beatrice Potter.
Amena Brown:
Oh yeah.
Alice Wong:
Her illustrations really, I mean they came alive. Just having those visuals, you know the Caldecott Award, those are awards for children's book and children's illustrations.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative)
Alice Wong:
And I remember as a kid, this is how nerdy I am, going to and checking out all the Caldecott Medal award winners and just seeing the different illustrations because I thought, "Oh my gosh, if I like this one I'm going to like all of the award winners." Again the power of words plus images really came alive and of course that really sparks whatever is going on in my little brain.
Amena Brown:
Oh whenever I would pick a book and then pick it up and see that Caldecott seal on the front, I just felt like, I felt like I was winning something, like I was winning some awards somewhere. I just thought, "Oh yes, this makes this book even more special." I was already looking forward to reading it and now it's a Caldecott. Oh, I'm so glad I can share this nerdiness with you, Alice, because I love those Caldecott books.
Alice Wong:
Me too! There was some really amazingly trippy ones, I felt like there was one I remember Arrow To The Sun where it's about I believe a death and the way they used the images it didn't give that much text but it just told a story of such a graphic nature. I get this is a different way to tell stories like graphic novels, the animation now and topics. These are all just so many different ways for people to express themselves which is really wonderful.
Amena Brown:
So wonderful. Oh my gosh Alice yes. I can talk to you about all the book things. I'm like, yes. I remember one summer I lived with my grandmother when my mom was in basic training for the Army and my school had a summer competition. If you won a hundred books over the summer, you'd get the T-shirt that had like the little bookworm graphic on the front. I mean, you couldn't tell me anything.
Alice Wong:
Yeah, game on, it's on, right?
Amena Brown:
Yes, totally. So you have not only written but you also took on the role of editor for the book Resistance And Hope it's essays by disabled people, Crip wisdom for the people. Can you talk about what was the process or maybe the difference in the process between writing and editing, going from the role of writer to now going into editing, because to be an editor, and you'll tell me if this is true in my mind, because I've never done this, but in my mind it seems like it's part curation of bringing the different voices together. I've sort of doing that corralling part and also the actual editing process of going through all the words and everything. So talk more about what was that transition like between being a writer and going into being an editor and why was it important to you to release Resistance And Hope?
Alice Wong:
Yeah, I think I'll first talk a little bit about the origins of this anthology. So, you know, like a lot of people, the election of 2016, it was scary, horrible, soul crushing, and I was in a panic personally. I knew exactly what kind of future and what this administration would bring despite a lot of people saying, "Oh you never know just give this person a chance." I'm like, "No." Ultimately marginalized communities, Trump insulted them all throughout the entire election and if you weren't listening to that this is what we have now because people didn't listen to Black women, people didn't listen to disabled people, people didn't listen to the LGBTQ community. So, you know, I was, like a lot of people just feeling at a loss about what now? And then I realized, you know what disabled people are just resilient creative survivors and it was really interesting seeing the word resistance pop up much more in 2016 and how everybody's resisting this and resisting that. I realized that there are disabled people who are out there doing the work, living this everyday way before this election and why aren't these voices part of this larger narrative or this larger conversation.
Alice Wong:
And I really thought about why do we do what we do. And I think for me personally despite all the horror and the distress and trauma and the real pain of living and fighting oppression, that we continue this work because we have hope. And I thought okay resistance and hope, resistance and hope, there's something interesting thereto observe what is the relationship between these two, did I really want to center it within a disabled lens? So I thought what can I do as an individual and the response to this administration and in response to this time period we're living in. And I wrote a few things that passed and I thought what's another way I could be creative and challenge myself. So I've never done it before, I decided to self-publish and edit an anthology and I thought this could be really a gift to the world. This is something that I think I can do that really showcases the people of my community and it's something that I can release and have it as a tool or as a resource or a reference to say this is where we are now, this is where we want to be and these are some people that you should be reading and following.
Alice Wong:
So I thought, "Okay let me see if I can do this, this is going to be interesting." I think it's a creative opportunity. It's about creativity. I think it's always good to push yourself to do something you've never done before and I learned a lot in terms of what's evolved in self publishing, this is an ebook and it was a great learning process and I think as an editor it's all about who you want to include and feature, and like that curation aspect that you said. I think that's almost just like casting, or once you're cast it creates the product. So, just like you in terms of us knowing each other on Twitter, a majority of people that I invited to submit an essay for this mythology are people that I follow and learn from and deeply appreciate on Twitter. So many folks I've never met in my entire life and I just like DMed them. I'm like, "Hey, I really appreciated your Twitter threads these past few months, they're just so full of wisdom." And I was like, "Do you have any interest in writing a bought for piece?"
Alice Wong:
So that to me was really exciting in terms of just putting myself out there and just approaching folks and doing this kind of really interesting crossing section of people that I personally find amazing in terms of just truth tellers, people that I consider bad asses in every different field. So I was very intentional that I wanted mostly marginalized disabled people. So that might be [inaudible 00:28:39] love disabled people or just queer disabled people, trans disabled people. And basically I was very intentional of having pretty much a majority of having a contributor to be a disabled person of color because I really wanted that to be just a default. I didn't even use the word intersectional because I feel like that word is almost over used and sometimes appropriated. I just wanted it to be what it is, that's it, and I want people just to take away from that, this is going to be my door and I want that to be an example for other folks.
Alice Wong:
But yeah it's been really fun and I think being editor I learned a lot. Up front I'm really bad at grammar so I hired a copy editor to do that, so that's definitely things that was really helpful to telling [inaudible 00:29:35]. But in terms of it's really like I want to work in editing, it's really just having the right compilation of essays and I couldn't be more pleased with what each contributor offered, in terms of what they decided to write about. And just the trust you have to have with your contributors, I think that to me was really interesting, that if you have this trust and faith that your writers will pull through, they usually do. And it's been just a thrill to be able to have this and I made a point to make sure that this anthology is free to make it accessible because that's another form of access that a lot of people don't think about.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, oh that's so good. That's so good. And we're talking about curation. I kind of want to also talk about podcasts in here because as you were talking about curating the voices and contributors that were in the anthology, and I loved the phrase that you used in there, that you wanted, the fact that this was majority voices who were disabled people of color, that you wanted that to be the default. And I was like, "Oh yes! Yes Alice." When I heard you use that phrasing, I loved that so much because we want the default to be centering the voices who are most marginalized, that should be our default that we center those stories that we elevate those leaders and voices. So you also have a podcast. You are so prolific Alice. I'm just, I'm out here looking at my calendar like I need to make more things because Alice is out here making some things.
Alice Wong:
Hey you know what it's not a competition, I feel like it's been a lot but I think I try to make things work for me in terms of if I'm not able to do something, that's okay. I think that's another thing as creators you and I probably both go through is this sense of obligation and I feel like we have to forgive ourselves and try to structure our work in a way that's optimal for us because otherwise because we do have some control of our work flow. For example, when I first started out with my podcasts, I assumed that maybe if I did a lot. And so I think I did one a week my first few months and I was like, "That is way too much for me." I learned from this, I need to make it more doable. So starting I think over a year ago I decided to do two episodes a month, which is already a lot I think but I'm not one of those people that has a podcast that's syndicated or anything, it's just me and some audio producers that I worked with and I think this is where having that consistency is good for the audience and it's good for me. But doing it in a way that doesn't make me feel like I'm constantly under pressure because I don't know about you but I'm in it for the long run.
Alice Wong:
I mean I guess it's totally true that some podcasts have a lifespan, right? It should be sometimes a one gear thing and that's totally okay but if I start something I think I want to try to carry it through as long as long as it needs to be drawn, right? That's the bottom line. I want to love to read this, I don't want to feel like it's a burden or feel stress so I'm going to try to make it as... Even if it might be a way that's atypical. I don't know about you but I plan my episodes really way in advance and I actually interview folks so if I interview somebody in April, their episode won't come out until months later because I like to have that wiggle room. So my podcast isn't going to be topical in terms of the latest thing, the latest conversation. Some podcasts are going to be like that but mine are going to be about these ever great topics and these are always going to be interesting I think. So, that's how I made my choices to really fit with my own abilities, my own strengths, and just making it more manageable for me.
Amena Brown:
It's such a good reminder hearing you talk about this Alice, because I am such a type A personality, I'm very much sets more goals than can realistically be accomplished in the time that I decided to complete them. I'm very much that person. So I'm in the middle of a season of life of really learning the lesson that you articulated so well that we have to forgive ourselves and give ourselves a lot more grace and just not feel like everything has to be super urgent. So with my podcast this is my third podcast, my sister-in-law and I have a podcast called Here For The Donuts. That's what I started with.
Alice Wong:
You know what the minute I saw that I knew we were kindred spirits because I'm a donut lover. Oh my gosh, can we talk about donuts after this?
Amena Brown:
Yes please. Oh my gosh because donuts are just so amazing. I mean, clearly that's how much I love them, that my sister-in-law and I were like, yeah, we should just start recording this. And so that's what we do on the podcast we eat donuts and talk about what we like to call inappropriate things but they're super appropriate, super appropriate and great. To some people they're probably inappropriate, but not to us. We don't care whatever it is, you know? And so that's kind of what got me into it, but because my sister-in-law is a midwife and mom of five kids, and I'm a traveling, performing artist, who has time? We just have to record as we have time. So some years we were putting out a bunch of episodes and then some years it was like a ghost town nobody knows what happens.
Amena Brown:
But we agreed at that point, we're going to record this for fun, we're going to record this as we can. We're not going to turn this into a machine. And then I did a limited edition podcast for my last book, How To Fix A Broken Record. And then I was like, "Oh, that was only 10 episodes. Oh, I need to do this more." So now my current podcast really I'm just in line with you so much in values because I wanted to have a podcast that can center the voices of Women of Color. Women of Color, telling their stories, telling their experiences personally, professionally, just whatever Women of Color want to say that this could be a place where I could just galvanize that kind of conversation.
Alice Wong:
In this media you have to be whatever you want it to be. I don't have these professional producers, advertisers that you got to be on platform so we're going to be our own individual creative thinkers and just putting the work out there, I think that's already an accomplishment in itself.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Talk to me about... I have so many questions about podcasting I'm trying to ask you. I want to know what was it about the podcast medium that made you want to create there? Because we have a lot of options now as creatives of how we can put our work out, which in a way I love, because it's created a lot more accessibility to the things that we make. Now if I have a poem I put out the 50 people who are there in the audience don't have to be the only people that get a chance to see it or hear it. Now I have a way to share it in some different places, but what was it about podcasting that made you want to use it as a medium? And then what's your process like as far as curating who you interview or the topics that you decide to talk about? Tell me more about that.
Alice Wong:
Yeah, so I think being mindful that audio content is accessible for some people, and being mindful that, you know, sounds are privileging. But ability I think there is something about the intimacy of radio and podcasting that's very unique and I can hear people's voices. I think sometimes there's a lot of magic that happens, you're in conversation with somebody there's a lot of unexpected things that can happen and there's a lot of discovery, it's like an adventure. You can be an awesome interviewer, prepare as much as you can, but also let it go. Letting the interviewee be the guide and just being a good listener, really making sure that the spotlight is on the interviewee, and just guiding the conversation. You got [inaudible 00:39:01] but what I find important is that my podcast is not a vehicle for me, it is a vehicle for the community that I'm a part of, the multiple communities that I'm a part of.
Alice Wong:
I think it's not the same for everybody's philosophy but that's my philosophy and I think it's the intimacy that's really I think that's really... And I think one thing I love about recorded conversations is that even the laughter, you can write an essay, you can have a Q and A, but you can't write in parenthesis laughter because then you miss a lot of these other noises that people make that I think also express emotions. This is another way of expression and I think that adds a lot to what the overall story and also just for the audience too, they're getting something different just as if this was a video series and they would be able to see us versus hear us versus read the transcript. I think there's just all these different ways of expressing ourselves and I think podcasts is just another, it's one of many modes and I think you have to try to test them out.
Amena Brown:
Yeah and be open to seeing what it's going to become. That's kind of my experience podcasting so far too, is that it sort of took me some episodes to figure out, well what do I want this to feel like? And I had interviewed people in other settings, but what's the frame of how I want to interview people here? And as we were talking about before we started recording, there's the prep work of looking into who it is that you're interviewing and how to make the interview feel warm and, and curious, I feel like that's a part of which maybe I'm just a nosy person honestly.
Alice Wong:
I mean I think it's true, I think at the heart of, every time I create [inaudible 00:41:09] I think it's about curiosity and a genuine interest in learning more and I think that's what's really exciting is that you can do the prep work but you can also just have a lot of questions and ways of really just giving space. Which I think is another act of love I think that we can show for each other. It's an act of solidarity, it's an act of love, it's a form of access. Just giving space.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I love that phrasing. I've heard the phrasing holding space, but when you said giving space, just now, that has even different implications from holding space because to give space is something very different. And I love that phrasing.
Alice Wong:
I think it also speaks to our privilege and our power and as media anchors we do have choices that we can make in terms of who we invite, what we want to talk about, and I think that's a very deliberate choice of who we want to give space to. And I think everybody almost whether it's just conversations or just whatever work they do, I think we all actually have that capacity whether we realize it or not.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. So Disability Visibility is your podcast. Disability Visibility is also an online community. And I want you to tell me more about that. Tell our listeners more about that because you are the director and founder of Disability Visibility as an online community. So what was the moment that inspired you to create this online community?
Alice Wong:
Yeah, thank you for asking. It's kind of funny, I mean we it's been almost five years since I founded the Disability Visibility project, which started in 2014. And this was really at first an all history partnership with Story Corps, I don't know if you're familiar with Story Corps?
Amena Brown:
Yes, yes familiar.
Alice Wong:
So, they're national history non profits, and taking all histories from various communities and those are the participants of having their oral histories archived at the Library of Congress. So, I went to one of their events and they talked about partnerships with various communities and I went up to them and I said, "Have you ever done one with the disability community?" And they said, "No, we haven't." And I was like, "Huh." And at that time, back it up to 2014, the Americans with Disabilities Act was going to turn 25, 25th anniversary in the year 2015. So the disability community around that time of the awards it was really gearing up in terms of just fighting different ways to embark this landmark anniversary and landmark civil rights law. And at that time I was just an individual person just wondering what could I do. I wasn't really affiliated with any organization, even at that time I don't think I even identified as an activist with a capital A, but I wanted to do something.
Alice Wong:
I thought okay why don't I create a one year oral history campaign where I encourage people with disabilities to tell their stories at Story Corps. And it first started off as that and I used social media to really get the word out. So that's where the online community kind of promoted to happen and it just snowballed. I think I really struck a nerve in terms of so many people want to tell their stories, there is such a void if we think about disability history, is it even taught in high schools? No it's not. So many people made major moments in disability history and other than FDR or Helen Keller or Stevie Wonder, how many people can name major people in disability histories?
Alice Wong:
So this is a way I think of honoring ourselves and to say this is history now in the making, this is the zeitgeist of where the disability community is now and the idea is not just to make names but really just stories of everyday people. Because I feel like we all are creative history whether we realize it or not and I think that's another thing that we don't value our own history until later on. And for so long with so many marginalized communities our stories are not told by us, they're often told by historians or other people that just use our work or just use our words, they're seeing us through their lens. So I wanted to give us a way to tell our stories in our own words and have to be a really active, participatory, empowering experience. And I'm proud to say that as of this year we have over 100 oral histories recorded and I do believe a majority of them are at the Library of Congress so that anybody can go in there, millennia later, centuries later, they're going to be there for all time and that to me makes me feel good.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Alice Wong:
And that wouldn't happen without people wanting to do it. It didn't matter if I had a great idea but if it wasn't something that resonated strongly with the disability community, yeah it would have never be what it is today. So, yeah I just want to say how much gratitude I have in terms of the way it's been received and the way that people just seem to really appreciate it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, wow. I love the idea of the importance of preserving the oral history and hearing more disabled history. That's such a powerful thing and you also are the creator of a hashtag crip the vote, yes?
Alice Wong:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
So I want to as just in hearing more about how Disability Visibility started out as this put this word out there to get more oral histories from the disabled community which that ask in and of itself creates more community which is just amazing to hear. You also talk a lot about the importance of civic engagement and use this hashtag crip the vote to encourage more discussion about civic engagement in the disabled community. Tell me more about what has been your experience as you are leading and initiating these types of conversations among the disabled community. Why is it important and I'm asking you a question I know a little bit of the answer to from my own experience but I think we're in a time that we are understanding the importance of civic engagement and understanding the importance of resistance. I just want to hear your perspective, why is it important to you that the disabled community is engaged in the process of government and in activism?
Alice Wong:
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of things to say about this because just like every issue is a woman's issue, I think of every political issue as a disability issue, and I think that another thing that a lot of non disabled people do not understand is that disabled people are part of every single community, every single issue can be seen as a disability issue and the fact that we like many other communities have been left out, exploited, and faced multiple barriers in terms of not just voting but other forms of political participation. There's a history of outright oppression and discrimination, actual barriers just physical and policy barriers. And, you know, years ago, people with disabilities often do not even have the choice of living in a community. I think people forget that, disabled kids were segregated, they had different classrooms.
Alice Wong:
So, it's come a long way but I don't think we're anywhere near parity in terms of the power that we deserve, political power. There's a community of voters, also political representation, right? And I think that's what's really important that who we elect, people who are in the major positions of power need to reflect all of us and we are not there yet but this is the way to get started in terms of just encouraging people to say, "Yes we all have a stake in this." And yes apathy is a huge problem, I myself have that struggle, I can throw my hands up and be like, "This shit is too hard!"
Amena Brown:
Right, right.
Alice Wong:
That's part of the point, that sometimes it does feel like everything's corrupt and the system is broken and the system does not work for us which is actually true to some respect and at the same time we have to think about more of the tools and resources in front of us. Well for some people voting still, one of the most basic things that you can use, for those who can't vote or aren't eligible to vote, let's not forget there are people who still whether obviously they're in prison or for other reasons they're disenfranchised from voting. So that again itself, voting is not the only thing, but it is something that a lot of people have access to. There's also just being a fellow teacher of the community, just showing up to meetings or whether you want to serve on a committee, or even I think online activism is incredibly powerful.
Alice Wong:
I do feel like Twitter and social media really is one of my environments I'm most comfortable in, it's where I feel most alive and most active because I feel like there's a way of sparking conversations through hashtags, through Twitter chats that can really reach people in ways that traditional forms of organizing cannot and I think they're complimentary, not either or, to not say one is better than the other. I think there's value in all kinds of activism and I'm just using what is at my hands, at my disposal, a really hopefully savvy way to really talk about these things in a very public media so that other people can see in. Our ability to join, and listen, and just learn, and I think having it out there is already something really important.
Alice Wong:
So crip the vote really started with my two friends and partners, Andrew Paulrank and Greg Beartad, and we were just three friends, we've never met in person once and they're both based in New York and we've been just really good friends all my life and I think again this speaks to the times we live in where online friendships are just a real, just as important as the people we talk to in front of us. And for a lot of disabled people who either can't get out of their house, who are sick, this is the world that we part of, this is how we find each other, this is how we connect. And it's really been a form of access for a lot of people. So the three of us were just people that were especially interested in politics, we followed the elections and we thought hey you know, since, if we start this right before 2016, it started in 2016 when there were just a ton of candidates and none of them were really talking about disability. And again we were like why are we always left out? You never see, well you rarely see, a person's platform, a candidates platform, talking about a disability community. You rarely see us as a community, as a community that is supported by candidates, why is that?
Alice Wong:
And I think this is another really interesting question because why aren't we being considered when we think about all the diverse communities as this diversities, the buzz words that everybody just try to chase, they try to look woke and very often the disability community is just an afterthought until well they tack in on sometimes until somebody says, "Hey, what about us?" And they'll be like, "Oh, okay, of course." So, there's something interesting about that, we're not even on the radar and I think part of the flood stream on Twitter is that you can't make a ruckus, you can't cause noise, and that's the actual power, sometimes it is for the creative community but it's also about globalized communities.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative)
Alice Wong:
And I think having a hashtag it belongs to everyone. We use it for our trips, we live Tweet debates and conventions during election years, it's for everyone to use who wants to talk about disability issues. And that's exciting too that it doesn't belong to Andrew, Greg, and me, it's now a thing unto itself. So it feels really great. Anytime I see people using it I was like, "Wow," it feels good. So yeah I think that's very gratifying about using hashtags and it really becomes a space in itself right, a place for people to converge and to meet.
Amena Brown:
There are so many powerful things that you just said. The tough part about interviewing people for your podcast is I want to have a little notebook over here to the side where I could scribble my stuff but then the whole recording would sound like, because I'd be over here writing things. But I just I thought it was so powerful the way you gave us the both and's there because if we're going to effect change, I think there can be this temptation to be like, "Oh well the only way we effect change is if we do it this way," or, "The only way to effect change is if we do it that way." And just effecting change is accessible to all of us and there are ways and steps that we can take, things that we can do that can help us all as a community work together.
Alice Wong:
Yeah and I think this is why activism needs to be redefined because I think sometimes there are some activists like, "There's one way to do this," or, "To be a activist you have to put your body on the line and sacrifice this." No, no that's not true. And I think it actually drives people away from wanting to get involved right because they have this very specific idea because the images and stories we see about activists and activism is somewhat narrow, right?
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Alice Wong:
So it's not just about these rallies or marches, wearing these signs, and the pussy hats. I really believe that even sharing information is a form of activism. You don't have to be affiliated with anybody to be an activist, you can just do stuff on your own and just do it quietly. You don't need a microphone, you don't need to even identify as an activist to be an activist. Even I myself I think was really reluctant, and I mentioned this earlier, to think of myself as an activist because I was worried that people would not see me that way or don't believe me and I think that's... I get this really weird orthodoxy, right? That to be a real activist or to do the real work you have to do this. And I think there's a lot of the we are ablest ideas too, right? That if you're not putting the time and energy or being physically in a space that somehow you're not the real voice heard.
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alice Wong:
And that's not true, there's a lot of ways to get your voice heard and I think we all need to really be much more mindful and accepting of all kinds of activism.
Amena Brown:
A word today from Alice Wong, a word.
Alice Wong:
You know it.
Amena Brown:
Since this interview Alice has continued her activism by amplifying disability media and culture. And for her most recent book she is the editor of the anthology Disability Visibility: First Person Stories From the 21st Century. Published by Vintage books in June 2020. Make sure you get a copy of the book and you can learn more about Alice's work by following her on Twitter at SFDirewolf and following Disability Visibility Project at divisibility on Twitter. And you can get more information at disibilityvisibilityproject.com. And of course all of these links and more links to different things in my conversation with Alice will be available on the show notes, you can find those at amenabrown.com/herwithamena.
Amena Brown:
And if you are not already following me, and I hope you are, but if you are not I would love to be your friend on social media. I am @AmenaBee, that's Amena B-E-E on Twitter and Instagram. I love to be your friend. For this weeks edition of Give Her A Crown, I want to give a special shout out to makeup artist Grace Ahn, this year on one of the faces of Olay's Face Anything campaign and this summer I had my first photo and video shoot for the campaign. Grace was the makeup artist that did my makeup and we had a special connection because she also did the makeup for the phase two video and photo shoot for Tracey Ellis Ross's natural hair care brand Pattern. I am the poetic partner for Pattern so I wrote the poetic piece that was used at that shoot. So even though Grace and I hadn't met each other until the Olay shoot, it felt like we already had the chance to collaborate.
Amena Brown:
Grace's amazing makeup artistry has taken her all over the world where she worked with fashion brands such as Christian Dior, Fendi, Ralph Lauren, and many more. As well as having her work featured in Vogue, Elle, New York Times, and many other magazines across the globe. Grace, you're not only a phenomenal makeup artist, but you are also a wonderful human. Grace Ahn, give her a crown.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions. As a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with I Heart Radio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.