Amena Brown:
Hey y'all. Welcome back to HER With Amena Brown. I'm here in the living room with one of my favorite people, one of my favoritest people. Please welcome poet, storyteller, public speaker, an author of new children's book, Winter's Gifts, Kaitlin Curtice.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Thank you. We are here. Everyone's applauding at home. Yes.
Amena Brown:
You know what, Kaitlin? I realized today that I think you and Kelundra are my most often featured guests on this podcast. If I could give out awards for who appeared here the most, it's you and Kelundra 'cause Kelundra has been coming on every year, the past three years to talk best of TV stuff with me each year, and I somehow find a way to really convince you to come here and talk to me consistently.
Kaitlin Curtice:
We have done it. This is our third time?
Amena Brown:
Yeah, so I think I've talked to you once a year.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, wow. It is our third, isn't it?
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Yeah. So thanks, Kaitlin.
Kaitlin Curtice:
I'll take it. I'll take that. Thank you.
Amena Brown:
Y'all, I was just telling Kaitlin before we started recording, it's really partly my excuse just 'cause we love each other. So it's really partly my excuse to be like, "Oh, let me just catch up with Kaitlin real quick on a recording.
Kaitlin Curtice:
We're recording for all these people. It's fine. It's fine.
Amena Brown:
We're here for it. We're here for it. Kaitlin, I'm so excited about your new book. This is your first children's book, am I right?
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, it is. I'm really excited. And also, I don't know what to feel. So many things.
Amena Brown:
Could you talk us through where did the idea begin for Winter's Gifts?
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, we lived in Vermont at the time, and it was awesome. I've wanted to write a children's book for a long time, but I thought, "What if I could write four books that's a series, and could be a box set one day?" 'Cause I would want that, I would buy that as a parent. What if I could create these four books that could be in a box set that someone could buy and have to show in their house throughout the seasons? 'Cause I changed my house throughout the season and I do all of that and I get out books in each of our tubs. It's like the season books come out. And so this first book came, it came quickly. I needed to write it, I think, and a lot of it is relating to me as a kid, a lot of it's watching my own kids.
And then it was like, we lived in Vermont, and it was winter. When you think of snowy winter, it was like the perfect setting for me to just sit on my couch by my wood stove in this tiny rental house we were living in Vermont. We lived there for one year and it was like, this book was written in that season. It was perfect. And writing about our husky, Sam, who passed away when we lived in Vermont, but he's in the book. So he's memorialized in this series, which I really love, and I wanted to write something that could sort of be universal but could also speak to our Potawatomi identity. And it just kind of came together really well in this celebration of all the seasons. So we start with winter and it's coming out and it'll be out for this cozy season that's coming, and I'm very excited.
Amena Brown:
I love it and I'm really excited to dive into this more with you. Y'all, one of my favorite things about Kaitlin is the ways that she and I can talk about spirituality and that when we talk about spirituality, it has a lot of freedom and boundlessness. I have definitely called Kaitlin, like, "Okay, so let's talk about this dream I had." We have really interesting conversations around that. And I think the idea of winter as a season is very spiritual and not related necessarily to any particular religion, but it's a very spiritual time.
It's a time where we are sort of contemplating the end of the year. We may be reflecting on the year that's passed. We may be trying to prepare for the year to come. There's just all of this sort of ruminating of the soul during that time. And for some of us in that season, you being in Vermont during that time, it's like you have some time where you just have to be indoors a lot more too because of the weather, the snow, the cold, all those things.
Kaitlin Curtice:
We were inside a lot in Vermont. It is cold, but it was beautiful. And I mean, winter's hard. It's a hard season for a lot of people. It's hard for mental health, emotional health. I mean, we're not getting out in the sunlight as much. Winter is hard. And so we acknowledge that, but also speak to, but what are the gifts that it also gives us? And like you said, this is hibernation season. It's this inward season. For us, it's the storytelling time. It's the time of the elders, like when we are learning from those who came before us and those who are older and wiser than us and they're telling us the stories that we need to hear. It's almost like you're storing up all those stories for the coming year, for the coming seasons, and I think that's a really beautiful thing. So I wanted to figure out a way to honor that in this book.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Can you talk about, as we are now at the time of this recording, digging into fall, which you start feeling that transition that fall is going to fold itself into winter, and for some people, there starts to be a dread about that for very good reasons and very important reasons. And for some people, there starts to be this relief, this sense of like, "Okay, we're going to come to a time where I know I'm not going to work as much. I know I'm going to have more time with my friends or my family and my people that I love." What are your thoughts about how we can even begin the process to become more intentional about embracing winter?
Kaitlin Curtice:
I think it's important to plan ahead as much as we hate to hear that. There is this beauty in... I mean, we plan ahead for the celebrations of our life. You plan ahead for a birthday party. You plan ahead for these things. So mark your calendar and plan ahead for winter solstice, decide to cook your favorite food that night and sit with a few people you love and light some candles or light a fire. And just intentionally set that time aside and talk about gratitude and talk about grief and talk about who you are and what you're learning about yourself in the season you find yourself in. Even in your own life, that life season, and what are you hoping to learn in winter? I think without becoming super linear or checking boxes, it's also really helpful to plan ahead and to be prepared for this moment, for this time that we're going to set this aside 'cause it is going to get crazy and busy.
December comes and it's wild how busy things get, so set it aside. Last year, I got too busy, and I couldn't really plan our family's solstice, and I was really sad about that, and I was... Oh, I was doing my audiobook for Living Resistance, my last book. So I was taking the train into Philly every day and doing these recordings and I didn't have the space or the energy. One day, I showed up at home and my partner Travis had decked the whole table. It was full of food, and he is an incredible cook, and he just did it. He did it all for us and it was like, oh my gosh, the sweetest thing. Because he knew how much it meant to me, he knows that it's just a part of our family and we want to still honor that.
And so he totally surprised me and I was really grateful to have someone else be like, "This is something we want to honor. Let's do it. We're still going to do it." And so just make the space and try to plan. And I think that that's a beautiful gift to give yourself is to be ready, you know?
Amena Brown:
Yeah, I love that. I was talking recently with Dr. Chanequa Walker-Barnes on this podcast, and we were talking about self-care and where celebration also plays a role in that, where joy plays a role in our self-care. And that was one of the things she said. She said, "Sometimes we need to plan ahead our celebrations or even our commemorations." There is sometimes a thing that we want to hold a certain space for. It may be something celebratory, it may be something that we need to just mark time about or take time to honor in a way. And that does take a bit of planning and community that in that moment that you were like, "This year I can't be the person who plans. I can't be the person who puts this thing together." And that your partner was like, "It can be me this year." I think that's really, really dope.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, it was really sweet. And that's so true. I tell people things like that all the time, in the same vein, plan ahead for your care. If you need to schedule it, if you're that type of person, then treat it like it's part of your job. Scheduling the things that you need. And it's hard because, especially being an author, you work on these books for so long and then you finally get to the end and it's like celebration, but also total exhaustion and relief and all this. Then the stress just builds somehow even more than you thought it would.
And a lot of times, I neglect the celebration part of just like, "Take a deep breath. Finally, the book is out, the thing has happened, celebrate it." And that's really hard for me actually. So I'm going to remind myself of that as this children's book comes out and as winter approaches, drink a little bit of extra hot cocoa and sit by the fire a little longer and take your time with it. And I think that that's good advice. I'm going to take it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, right,
Kaitlin Curtice:
It's the therapy session. This is great.
Amena Brown:
That's what we're here for. But, Kaitlin, you and I have talked to about just how interesting it is being an author, that it's a really wonderful privilege and opportunity to be able to take the words that you have and put them in this book. It is hard. And I have gotten to the end of the process and not felt like as much of a winner as I thought I was going to feel. I thought I was going to be that real, like Rocky... like that. Instead, I was just like...
Kaitlin Curtice:
In bed with the covers up.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, just totally crying. So I do think it's important after all of that to not just honor that writing a book is air quotes and achievement. It's to honor all that you had to put in to it, all that it took out of you to do. And unfortunately, in the business part of us being authors, I feel like the celebration of us can get lost in the sauce. It's like the book comes out, you've got all the interviews if you decide to do those. You've got all this promotional stuff. You've got to post stuff on social media, you got to do all those things. There's no one there... You had your editor to walk through these parts with you. You had your line editor, your copy editor. You had all these people, but you don't have a person outside of your people that love you in your life to actually come alongside you and be like, "Hey, let's go to dinner," or "Let's bake our favorite thing. Let's do something to celebrate you that you did this."
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, yeah. Which is why I tell people all the time that being an author, it's a solo practice. Our work can be very isolated and solo, but we're part of this community of writers. But also, whoever those people are that are in our life, we cannot do it alone. It is always connected to community and how we are able to, especially if we're from marginalized communities or oppressed voices, trying to share our words with the world. We need the people who hold us up and shout for us 'cause sometimes, you just want to be done and almost forget it happened for a second, and you don't want to do that. Celebrate the beautiful thing.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about the holidays here because as we are leading... I think the interesting thing about winter is as a literal season, it has a lot of beauty in it. It has a lot of things that it can teach us. I also think particularly for those of us who are living in America right now, there is sometimes the feeling of like, "Oh, shit. Here I go with all the holiday functions and some..." It gets to be that sort of feeling of now it's going to be all this stuff. My friends that have kids, they're like, "I got to do this stuff at the school." And now you got a holiday concert, I got, "Ah, you know." And then you have your extended family stuff and you're like, "Oh, well, we going to go over so-and-so's house," and yikes, the way the conversation was last year and whatever that stuff is.
So I feel like that also participates in bringing us the feelings of dread that some of us have as it relates to holidays and holiday gatherings. I wanted to get some of your perspective about this. I wanted to share with you that I feel like the beginning part of the pandemic where we were all kind of separated away from each other, there were a lot of hard things about that. In some ways, there were also some learnings from me of like, "Oh, look at this holiday time that we got to have." That wasn't the hustle and bustle, that wasn't the big party, the big gathering to go to.
You sort of got to focus in a little bit more with intentionality because we were having to, for the sake of our health, opt out of some things to keep our kids safe, keep our loved ones safe, keep our elders safe. That's what we were having to do. So then when the period of time came, where it was like, "Oh, it's safer now. We can do this stuff we were doing before." And I was like, "Oh, God, do we have to do that though?"
Kaitlin Curtice:
All the introverts were like, "I think we're okay-"
Amena Brown:
I actually-
Kaitlin Curtice:
"... we're going to be at home a little longer."
Amena Brown:
Like, "I love you guys, but I enjoyed it without y'all, so not sure." And I also think it can be... And you and I have talked a lot about having to build boundaries. We've talked about that on this podcast as far as boundaries we've had to build around social media and our work, boundaries we've had to build around when we're doing events for our work. And you and I personally have talked about other things in life personally where we've had to build boundaries too. And I feel like one of the boundaries that's real hard is around the holidays when what you may need or what your family may need may be different from your friendships, may be different from your extended family. What do you think caused you to get to a point where you felt you had permission to opt out?
Kaitlin Curtice:
That's a good question. This is hard. And I think so many of us dance around this and it is really hard. Well, and the other sort of blaring thing for a lot of us that is connected to family and friends and all this stuff is, what happens to those of us whose vision of this wonderful America starts to cave in? And so I'm thinking specifically about Thanksgiving, Easter, Christmas, some of these holidays where you're starting to be like, "Oh, that's really rampant capitalism and consumerism, and it's kind of gross, isn't it?" And "Oh, why can't we celebrate also the other holidays around this time? Why is it only Christmas and not all the other holidays that are celebrated?" You know, things like this. And Thanksgiving is what we know it to be. It's a total colonial holiday.
So how do we reckon with the history around all of it? And every year when it comes up, I am... We live so far from our family too. I mean, we live across the country, so there's always the travel and there's just so many little strategic things. And I think part of it is every year is sort of the sitting down, do the strategic planning, what can we handle? What are we able to do physically, whatever with the school breaks, with all the things, what can we actually handle that we're able to do? And then also I think it's important to ask, what do we need? Because it is not helpful to just run ourselves dry.
So last year, for Thanksgiving, we actually went and stayed in an off-grid, tiny house in Upstate New York. It was the weirdest, best thing ever. I mean, we rock climb as a family, and we're going to do something similar again this year. What we need most is to just get to the land and to the quiet and not really focus on this particular holiday. That's not everybody, everyone has different things. We love food. We love meals, we love gratitude. We love the act of Thanksgiving, but we would prefer to just be on some land where it's quiet and actually commune with nature, think about Mother Earth, do that as a family.
And so that's become really important to us. So last year, we just stayed in this crazy, off-grid, little house thing, and we're pumping our water for our coffee in the morning. We had to work for it. We had to work for that holiday. But it was perfect because it wasn't anything like the stress of what it usually is. And it was great. And we celebrated and we did what we needed. And I think that a lot of us who struggle with boundaries, who struggle with these conversations feel guilty and selfish a lot of the time. And we go to therapy being like, "What are we going to do this year? How are you going to help me figure this out?"
Amena Brown:
That's the thing to the therapist, how are you going to help me figure this out?
Kaitlin Curtice:
It's hard. It's asking each of ourselves what we can handle, what do we need, what can we handle and how can we strategize? And it's really funny that that's what I would say is that we have to strategize, but I guess it's the planning ahead for solstice. It's the same thing. And you have to just have some time to do the things you want. There are so many things pulling for our time, so many parties, so many gatherings, so many meals. Where's the rest? Where's the care? Where's the sort of quiet kinship? Where's the connection with Mother Earth? Are you doing that throughout that time? 'Cause I think it becomes so much about money and gifts.
In my children's book, there's a line where Donnie, the main character, is talking to her friends from school and they're talking about Christmas or the holidays, and she's like, "What about the gifts of winter?" And they're like, "What about them?" They're like, "Mother Earth doesn't give us gifts, what are you talking about?" And that's Donnie's big dilemma in the book is, "Oh, no, these people who are my friends, they don't believe that Mother Earth gives us gifts." They want the tangible presents. They want the stuff, but what about the gifts that are just already existing out there? And I think the best way for us to even practice embodiment, to get back to our own bodies, our own grounding to learn boundaries, all of that is actually connected to how we access our relationship to Mother Earth.
And I know that people don't realize that, and I'm realizing it as an adult. I didn't grow up learning that, but when we start to repair our relationship to the land, it changes our bodies. It gives us strength to do things and make decisions that we wouldn't before. And I don't really know how to describe how it happens, but I know it happens, and I know that it heals us and helps us. And I think the holiday seasons are a perfect time to put that into practice.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that is so helpful, Kaitlin. I don't know why every time I talk to you, I'm tearing up a little bit, but I'm like, "Man, that's so helpful." Because I think a lot of it is based on sort of an Americanized probably insert capitalist vision of what holidays are supposed to be. And that's very centered around what we deem to be tradition, which is not always tradition in a holistic sense as far as it being connected to the people we come from or connected to the land, to those stories that we need to retell. Sometimes it's tradition connected to obligation, connected to the appearance that it's supposed to have in the picture or in the video.
And so when we are like, "Oh, my whole family's gathering for such-and-such holiday, I will be messing up the tradition by deciding that that's not a gathering I think I can participate in." And I do think a part of this time gives us hopefully the ability to where we can with family and friends, have some honest conversation around that. To have some honest conversation. I know I've had to say, "Hey, such-and-such holidays coming up and we might need to not be at that," or "If we come to that, we might need to be there for a much shorter time than you're used to seeing us." To start having some of those conversations where you can. Some of us have family members where you can't have those conversations. They're not going to be helpful.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Do it early-
Amena Brown:
Do it earlier when you can.
Kaitlin Curtice:
... an earlier start. Just get it out there.
Amena Brown:
Laying the groundwork there, that way in case we leave early, or we get there, and we don't have gifts. You already know what's happening here. I think if you are listening to this and you're sort of feeling that sense of dread and the, ah, that comes with it. I think sometimes that dread is trying to speak to us, which is to answer the question you said, Kaitlin, what is it you need in this season? What you may have needed a previous holiday season, you may have different needs right now.
And to be able to pay attention to that. I've had some holidays where it was like I needed to call my friends and say, "I need you to come to my house. Just bring whatever food you have. We don't care. We'll have an ugly potluck. I don't care. I need my house full of people." I'm like, "The food's great, but maybe it doesn't look great. Just bring your ugly food to my home. I just need to hear people's voices that I love, and we'll play some card games or whatever we do." And sometimes that's what you need. And there are other seasons that come that you're like, "I need that tiny house. I need to be closer to the land, away from the grid, away from the devices and all of that." So I think that's a really powerful question to ask. What do you need this year? Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah. And to be aware of the fact that other people won't need what you need. So maybe don't invite that person to go on the long hike with you 'cause that's probably may not be what they need. And if you need it and you're aware that they don't, hold some space and maybe meet up for coffee at some other point. Don't expect other people to be changing in the same ways that you're changing. A lot of us are deconstructing. We're asking hard questions. We're ending up sort of separating and sifting out relationships, that's happening for a whole lot of people.
And when we start to question especially the norms or the status quo in America and around things like holidays, it gets really difficult sometimes. But just like it's hard for us, it's also going to be hard for others sometimes too. That doesn't mean they're just going to come along up with us then. So there's a reciprocity of care, I think, that we can hold with others. And I know that that's hard for some of us to hear, especially if we feel, if they're wrong, but we're right, or we're trying to decolonize this holiday like, "What are you doing?" But we have to hold space for that 'cause not everyone is going to be at that. So again, what do we need? How can we hold all of that? And grounding ourself with what we need, I think is the best way to do it and to create space where we can.
Amena Brown:
I love that you said reciprocity of care, and that is hard 'cause sometimes, especially if what is sending you to opt out of something, if rage is involved. If you've gotten to a point where you're just like, "I'm fed up with some shit, so no. I said what I said, we not going to be doing that this year at whatever holiday. I said, we not doing that." And your anger is understandable and valid. It's very valid. And to where you can hold space for the other person across the table that they may have their own very valid emotional reasons why they want to gather in these ways and just finding ways to do what you need for yourself. And in some ways too, Kaitlin, I also feel as an oldest child and people pleaser, I've had to accept that sometimes doing what I need will be disappointing to other people.
And that doesn't mean that because it's disappointing to them that it's wrong that I'm doing what I need to do. But there is a way I can say, "This isn't a malicious thing I'm doing to you in any way. This is me doing what I need. And I realize you wanted to see us at that gathering. I realized you hoped that we would participate in this such-and-such way, and I realized it will be disappointing to you that we can't, but your disappointment can't be the motivator for why I need to move beyond what is a boundary for me right now." Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Those are wise words from a people pleaser.
Amena Brown:
Okay.
Kaitlin Curtice:
From all of us, thank you. It's hard. It's hard.
Amena Brown:
It's so hard. I think that this time in the last three years really showed me how much I was used to doing out of obligation. So many things that I was just like, "Oh, now that I had a chance to opt out of that, I actually realized I had years I wasn't having a good time," or "I had years I didn't enjoy this. I had years I needed something else." And I wasn't able to listen to my inside soul. I wasn't able to listen to my own spirit in a way in that season of life, but I can hear me now and I can hear what I need now.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah. And I think for a lot of us who grew up in Christian spaces too, that goes back to that same kind of people pleasing expectation of like, "Well, of course, you're going to celebrate this holiday," or "Of course, you're going to come to this service or this youth event," or "You're going to participate in this way." Like, "Of course, you are, because that's what we do." And so to disrupt any of those status quos, any of those social norms within our religious communities or our families or whatever it is, our social communities, that can be really. That can be really scary for a lot of people. It is not easy. And so going gentle with ourselves during this time is... I mean, I love the holidays. I love the coming coziness. I love wrapping presents and thinking of people and giving them these gifts that are meaningful to me, and I picked them for these people for this reason.
I love all of that. I love watching Christmas movies. I love the music. I love it. I think it's incredible. And also at the same time, I feel the exhaustion and I feel the tension and we're allowed to shift. We are allowed to shift. We are allowed to change. We are allowed to say, "For some reason, this holiday feels really hard this year, and I don't know why. Maybe I can change a few things about how I'm approaching it." Because last year it was different and we have to hold space for that. I think if the COVID season, incubation taught us anything, it was that we have to hold space that some years things are completely different than other years.
So just because we make a decision for one year, that doesn't mean that's always going to be our pattern either. And it's okay to deconstruct, to ask the questions, to say, "I don't know why, but whatever I did last year isn't working for me this year and I have to change something." You know?
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice:
And that's okay. It really is okay, but we have to give ourselves permission for it to be okay.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, this was my first time, the last couple of years opting out of Easter. I was normally a person who's like... I mean, first of all, having worked in Christian spaces a long time, Easter was a workday for many years because I was going there to speak at this place, to perform for Good Friday and Easter service and stuff. And then after I left doing Christian spaces, then it was like, "Okay, well, now I just get to enjoy that holiday with my family." We get to go to church together, go eat afterwards or whatever. And then between 2020, 2021, somewhere up in there, Easter was approaching, and I was like, "Not me this year. Not me. I'm not going to go to church. I don't want to go to anyone's after dinner thing you do after that." Just opted out. I think one year I just watched Beyonce's Lemonade, which turned out to be very great. This is still resurrection, redemption in some way-
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yes, yes, yes.
Amena Brown:
... that 's what I'm doing. Yes, and a part of me was shaking really inwardly, a lot of trepidation of like, "Oh my God, what does it mean that I've just decided to opt out of this? Where am I?" I Feel like when you grow up evangelical, there's this way that you're like, "Oh, God, I'm on the slippery slope. I'm just going to keep sliding down. I don't know what I'm sliding into, but it's very slippery and it's a slope and I'm..."
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah. Yep. Yes. And what's so funny though, is that so many of our Christian holidays are super Christian and then super capitalistic and weird like the Easter Bunny, and you hope to get a bunch of eggs with money in them, but also make sure it's about Jesus. So we have these weird... And Santa and capitalism and are you a good little kid and Jesus' birth. And so there's all of these things where we've... It's what cultures and societies do, but we sort of blend these weird things together and call it a holiday.
And then when you start to ask deep questions, you're like, "Which part have I given up?" Or "How am I done with all of it?" Or "Do we do the Easter Bunny part but not the other part?" Or "What happens now?" Because it's so cultural, it's so embedded. And I think we're going through some of that in our family as well. And me personally, what parts do we keep? Are we allowed to keep bits and pieces? Are we not allowed to do that? Is the whole thing gone and we just ride the slope? Slippery slip down to wherever it takes us, and there's a bunch of people waiting there. So it's not like we're the only ones doing it. A bunch of people who have done it. A lot of people are trying to ask these questions which I think is a beautiful thing.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, I think it is good to explore that. I think I'm also a person who, if I could use dating as an example, it's like I can't be cordial or friends with someone I just broke up with. So it's like I need that time of like, "Let's just not see each other. Let's not talk, let's not text. I don't want to do that." And then if enough time passes by where I've been able to find my voice again, figure out my feelings, whatever, then I can see that person somewhere and just be like, "Oh, hey, how are you?"
I still don't want to kick it with you, and I still may not want to go to coffee or whatever. But I can at least be like, "Oh, I can have a conversation for a little while and not be so awkward." And I sort of feel when you're in a process of deconstructing, whether that's from the religion you were raised with or also, like you were saying, Kaitlin, a lot of us are learning about the roots of some of the holidays that we celebrated beyond religion, and we're learning the roots of that are very terrible. And so that causes us to also begin to question. So it's like sometimes, I'm a person and everyone's process on this will be different. I'm a person who's like, I just need a cold Turkey away from you, away from that.
And then I'll start to find myself sort of finding the mosaic of things that I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I may not want to go to this kind of service, but I do like the singing and I do want to keep some parts of that. I may not want to celebrate this in this sort of way, but I do want to find a way to honor the ancestors by how we do this type of thing." So I do think the mosaic part can be kind of fun and interesting and healing that process. But I do need the breakup time sometimes where I'm just like, "No. No, thank you. No, I don't know. No, thank you. I don't want to hear, away in a manger. I don't want to do that. I don't want to have. I don't want your Easter Bunny. Maybe I do want to get the candies on discount after Easter's over, but I don't want... Maybe I will get a little Pastel Reese's cup. But listen..."
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah. Gosh. I love that. I love to use that dating metaphor 'cause my metaphor is like a pendulum swing. So I go from one into the complete other. And then eventually after the grief has subsided a little, I start finding my way to a balance, to a center, to something. So your mosaic is, it's my balance and center. But I love that we have these two different metaphors that are the same thing. It is. But I think that's healthy. I think that it's when I realized that there are certain foods that I can't eat, and I have these health issues, you have to cut it all out. And then you slowly start adding it back in to see how you feel and how it affects you. But I think it's really similar with this.
You cut it all out or most of it or whatever you need and then you see... I don't want to go into then appropriation world where we're like, "Oh, these religions all look nice. Let's grab a little from everywhere and we'll just make something. This is fun." So that's not what we're saying, but we're saying like, "What can we create that's meaningful?" I would love for any human to create a winter solstice ritual that means something to them, that honors their ancestors, that honors who they are, that brings their culture to the table and their gifts of gratitude.
How can we do that honoring others? How can we make it about kinship and belonging and this deep, beautiful connection with Mother Earth and with our bodies and with each other? I think that's what a lot of us are trying to do after getting away from a lot of these systems and spaces that are so much about disembodiment and oppression and lives like the stories that we haven't been told. And I think we're all trying to get back to some sort of, how do we re-approach these things with care and nuance and the beauty of their complexity, the mosaic, the balance. How do we find that? And that's hard. And it calls for care, which I think is why so many of us are exhausted when this time rolls around. If we're doing that work, it is exhausting like, "Oh, what do I feel about Thanksgiving this year? What kind of foods should I make? What would be appropriate? Whose lands am I on?" All those questions, it's tiring. You have to just go slow and be okay that it's exhausting 'cause it's beautiful work, but it can be exhausting.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, and it takes time too. It's like you said, it's holding space for where you are in this particular year and that next year, you may need different things, you may be in a different place. And as time goes on, if you are beginning this work inside yourself, then you will continue on with that work. You will grow, you will evolve, you will have different ways that you will change and know what your boundaries are, what your wants are. You will know more of what feels ethical to you, of what part of your processes have integrity to you and how to walk in all of that. And all of that is a time thing, unfortunately, fortunately.
It's a time thing. You can't expect yourself to be like, "Herein, I will read a book as long as all of Shakespeare's works, in which I will know all of the things that I'm supposed to know and all of the practices that I'm supposed to take upon myself as well as the practices that I should not do because they don't belong to me, and I should not be involved in that." You're not going to know that in three months or a year. You're just going to be building a life of knowing and evolving. I mean, that's the only way I can think.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yes. And a life of it. And that's the key is, when people ask me about my book Living Resistance, when they're like, "What's the big takeaway? Or one of them?" And I'm like, "Well, the way I end the book is that resistance is lifelong work." So this is our whole life. We could be 85 and be like, "I don't like the way I've been doing that for the past two decades. I'm going to change things this year." This is the year and we do it, and it's great. Please do it.
If there's still something that needs to change and shift in you when you're 85, when you're 87 years old, when you're 23, when you're 36, 42, whatever. Let the things change and let yourself evolve and let the story be told differently because that whole idea that it's never too late, and also that our whole life is for this work. And that's a beautiful thing so that we are not like, "I have to read all the books before October," and "I have to be totally ready this year." Do the things you can do. Please tell the truth about certain holidays. That's awesome work. Please do that. But don't try to recreate it all completely. It has to be right. That's just more pressure we're putting on ourselves. And that's not the goal. That's not what we should be doing.
Amena Brown:
Right, exactly. Okay. Talk to me about Winter's Gifts. I don't want you to give away all of the gifts that are in the book, but when we are in the fall leading into winter, what are a couple of Winter's Gifts? What are a couple of those gifts that we can think about, be more intentional about observing? What are your thoughts on that?
Kaitlin Curtice:
I'm going to read a little from the book.
Amena Brown:
I was hoping so.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yeah, I'm just going to read the first few pages because I feel like that it's such a good question. And like I said earlier, winter can be overwhelming. Even the coming, we can start. I mean, people deal with depression in winter. It's very real. There's a lot. There's a heaviness that comes and a blanketing, and that can be very hard. So I would never dismiss how really hard it is for people, but they're also just these beautiful gifts. So let me just read a little bit from the book.
Amena Brown:
Okay, good.
Kaitlin Curtice:
And I always say children's books are not just for children. I mean, I have two kids and I've been reading them children's books for years, and we just had piles and piles of them. And I'm reading them a book, and they're one and three, and I'm sobbing and reading this book, and they're like, "I don't know wrong, mom, but you were seem to really..." Well, I don't know what's happening. And there's just some children's books, they're so therapeutic. We're still connected to our child selves. There's still some healing to be done there. So If you need to buy Winter's Gifts and let it heal your relationship to your child self, please do it. Please do it.
All right, I'm going to read. "Donnie touches a frost covered branch on the oak tree in her yard. She shivers. Winter or a baboon is coming in a few days. Our family will light a fire or oshkode and think about the darkest night of the year. Many of her friends are afraid of the dark, but not Donnie. The dark feels like a hug. And winter is a time for cozy hugs. The dark of winter reminds us to rest, even the bears rest in winter." And then there's a section here, "Donnie thinks about the gifts of winter. They're different from the gifts that come during the holidays. Winter's gifts are telling stories and waiting. Another gift of winter is resting like the bears. After we rest for a while, the sun brings back the grass, the flowers, and the leaves on the trees."
So I think that thinking about winter as this, reminding ourselves that it's this preparation time. That the bears, they're resting for a reason. They know what's coming when spring comes. And even the plants, the plants that die aren't just dead, but they know what's coming in spring when everything's going to come to life again. And I think that that's beautiful. This time of covering ourselves up, going inward, waiting, asking what the waiting means in preparation for what comes next. I think thinking of winter that way, I think helps me. It's a waiting time, but it's also a preparation time.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Oh, I love that imagery that the darkness of winter is like a hug. Oh, that's so good. That is for children, but it is for adults and all the kids inside of us too, to remember that. Kaitlin, thank you so much. And you're not going to get me in my tear ducts today. Kaitlin started reading them pages, child. I'm about to be in here crying and crying. Oh my gosh. Tell the people where they can buy five copies of this book. Y'all know how I do.
Anytime someone's here talking to us about a book, I don't want you to buy one, buy five. That way when somebody comes to your house and they're like, "Oh my gosh, what's this book?" You can be like, "Oh, look, here's one. You could take that one with you." You have one you keep in your house. So where can they buy five copies of this book and how can they stay connected to your work? I have heard wind about your Substack community that there's some newsletter writing. Just tell us everything, Kaitlin. Tell us everything.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Yes. So the best way to find anything is on my website. So kaitlincurtice.com. All the books are there. All the ways to order them. And, yeah, The Liminality Journal, this will be... I think that your listeners will appreciate this. The Liminality Journal is in my Substack. We write poetry together. We talk about liminal space, the gray area. Like this, this is what we're talking about, all the in-between where we don't really have the answers yet. And right now, I'm writing a series called After Church, and it's for people who have left institutional church community and are trying to figure out what community looks like after. And I think that that's along the exact same vein of what we've been talking about.
And again, there are a lot of us that are making those decisions, are in the middle of that decision or have already left, but are still part of a spirituality, a deep faith, whatever that may be. How do we build community again? Or how do we keep building it in an intentional, ethical way? So that's a new series that I have and really loving it as triggering as it's writing it. But, yeah, I'm on Instagram all the time, sharing my books, and I travel and speak. So, yeah, look up my website. I mean, it's all there. And I would love to say hi to anybody at my events. And, yeah, please buy five copies of my book. That would be awesome.
Amena Brown:
Buy five. Thank you all. Thank you all. Kaitlin, thank you for always saying yes to coming on here and talking with me-
Kaitlin Curtice:
Oh, I love it.
Amena Brown:
... and just sharing your processing and your work with us. I know that it really enriches the listeners and me, so thank you so much.
Kaitlin Curtice:
Thank you. So good to see you.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women podcast network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.