Amena Brown:
Hey y'all. This week I am so excited to bring you an episode from the HER archives in the before times. I'm talking with photographer and creative director at Tropico Photo, Michelle Norris. Michelle and I discussed navigating the tensions between creative work and business. Michelle shares why creating an aesthetic is important for anyone building a brand and why it's important to know and understand the worth of your work. Check it out.
Amena Brown:
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of HER With Amena Brown, and I'm Amena Brown. And let me tell you all something, my guest today, she's awesome for a couple of reasons. But mainly because it's our second time recording this interview. If you've been listening to my podcast, this has only happened once before. And she has been gracious enough to re-record, so shout out to that. I want to welcome photographer, creative director of Tropico Photo.
Michelle Norris:
Thank you.
Amena Brown:
I am welcoming Michelle Norris to the podcast.
Michelle Norris:
Hi Amena, I'm happy to be here again.
Amena Brown:
Michelle, this actually worked out super great, because we're getting to be in person and-
Michelle Norris:
We wanted to be face-to-face last time.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, so our schedules were like, so this worked out super great. You all, we're going to be talking about all the photography things. And I want you to know, first of all, you should just check out Tropico's work, because there's a lot of amazing work. And when I first met Michelle through Kristy Gomez, super shout out to Kristy Gomez.
Michelle Norris:
Thanks, Christy.
Amena Brown:
Because I was looking for a photographer to work with me on how all the photos were going to be for the release of my book, How to Fix a Broken Record, my author photo on the back. Michelle, you were the first professional photographer I ever worked with for a book photo, because my first book, Matt and I just went to downtown Decatur and hoped for the best.
Michelle Norris:
I mean, that's how most photography starts out. You cover the basics, and then over time, you want to get a little fancier with it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, with someone who is a professional and knows the things. And so I reached out to Kristy and I was like, "I'm looking for a woman of color to take some photos and make them look dope." And she was like, "It's Michelle Norris that you need." And then I went to look at your work, and I was like, "It is Michelle Norris that I need." So the photo on the back of How to Fix a Broken Record is the work of Michelle Norris. And the photo on the back of How to Fix a Broken Record was also styled by Michelle Norris, because I literally was like, "Please take pictures of me. And also, I don't be knowing how to dress."
Michelle Norris:
But now you know.
Amena Brown:
I do know. We're going to talk about that a little bit too Michelle, because I wish you all could see this outfit that Michelle is wearing honestly. It's a casual weekend when we're recording this and it's very fun and chic what she's doing today. And I just want you all to know, that I gets my education.
Michelle Norris:
Thank you.
Amena Brown:
So we're going to talk about that, because I think one of the things I've loved about working with you and one of the things I love just about your work even that isn't pictures of me, is I love just the way you incorporate light and color and style, and there's such an artfulness to that and I really want to know more about that. So I want us to talk about that. But I'd like to start with an origin story first. Do you remember your first camera?
Michelle Norris:
My first camera actually was like many cameras because I was shooting with disposable cameras all the time. I guess it was in middle school when I started to get them and I just took photos of everything. It was kind of a collector's sort of a thing, I was doing where I was shooting with my disposable camera, pictures of my friends, pictures at school, around the house. And then I would get them all printed and I would put them up over my walls. So I wasn't showing them to anyone and didn't really have any end goal. But I definitely liked documenting my life in general. And then in high school, I got a DSLR eventually, but it was more of the same just like shooting around. I definitely didn't have a direction then.
Amena Brown:
Okay. And I want to also ask while we're asking origin questions, were you always interested in fashion and style also?
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, I definitely was. I think there was a lot going on when I was younger. So there's definite like long term honing that has happened, because I find that coming along with an interest in style, there was also a lot of fumbles, because if you dress really casually and maybe take less risk, it's really hard to go wrong. And I think that when I was younger, I was doing everything. There were times when my parents would literally tell me I couldn't leave the house in what I was wearing, because it was too many patterns. Not because it was revealing or anything, they were like, "That looks crazy."
Amena Brown:
"You can't put polka dots and stripes."
Michelle Norris:
And this specific, I think it was like a tie dye and plaid sort of a thing going on. And I was like, Mary Kate and Ashley were my style icons when I was younger, and my mom wouldn't take me to get their line that had come out at some Limited Too like, something like that, right? Like the fancy.
Amena Brown:
Come on and say Limited Too in this conversation today. Yes.
Michelle Norris:
And so instead, but she let me get their like Walmart line, but I literally was wearing a tank top at different points that just said, the words Mary Kate and Ashley. It wasn't like they had really designed it as much as it just said their names. So there was interest there, but it was definitely all over the place for a long time. But I've always really liked fashion and aesthetics, and that definitely factors into what I do now in a big way.
Amena Brown:
Well, and I think that's interesting, because not every professional photographer is good at style. I think it's really cool that you have both of those things. I mean, we know some people who are going to be really great at style, really great at aesthetics, and wouldn't be great at photography, and vice versa. So I think it's really dope that you get a chance to bring those two things together in your work, right?
Michelle Norris:
And it's really exciting because it just brings a whole another element to what we do. As the team, my husband, Forrest Aguar and I, as Tropico Photo. It really lets us pull together the aesthetic of all of our projects in a way that feels complete, and it's our voice from beginning to end. Because I have influence over art direction, and style and my own sense of personal style, it helps us to brand really strongly and have control over those portions that sometimes, a lot of commercial photographers will have a signature about their look. But you'll look at their portfolio and it's all over the place, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But for us, we bring a very specific style to everything that we do, which is helpful in a lot of ways because people know exactly what they're coming to us for.
Amena Brown:
Okay, can you talk a little bit about the importance of having aesthetic as a creative, because there's fears sometimes among us as creatives and whatever work we do that we should be more generalists, and not that it's bad to be a generalist. But I think we have these fears that what if set client or a set opportunity comes and they're like, "We only wanted these to be turquoise." And you're like, "Okay, well, cool. I can do turquoise," and they're like, "We want these to be metallic." And you're like, "Cool. I can do."
Amena Brown:
So I think we ended up in that mode without taking a bit of a creative step back to say, what's my aesthetic or the aesthetic of my company? So can you talk about why is that important or do you think it's important for creatives to have some of those ideas in mind versus feeling like they have to be generalists?
Michelle Norris:
Yeah. I think it's a big thing, especially in photography. Early on, a lot of people say, "Make sure you can do everything, so that you could get any type of job." And I think that that can serve you to a point. But at this moment in time that we're at, especially with things like Instagram being so pervasive, branding yourself is so important. And you're not going to be able to build a solid following, you're not going to be able to get all the jobs that you want if you don't have something special that you deliver in every project. Meaning that, specializing in creating your own brand, can help you stand out in a lot of ways.
Michelle Norris:
The fact is there are some jobs you might miss out on because people think you're too specialized, if you were more generalized, their jobs, you're going to miss out on because people think you don't have a specialty. So you have to let go of that fear and instead ask yourself, "How do I be the best at the area I'm pursuing?" And Tropico Photo is generalized in some ways. We don't specifically shoot one type of thing. I mean, we do still life, we do portraits, we do travel stuff. A lot of different things, but we bring the same style to all of them.
Michelle Norris:
There is a point when you have to be okay with having some flexibility, because there will be big clients that come to us with jobs that we see why they're asking us to do it. There might be parts that are out of our element or something that we wouldn't necessarily choose or if it was our own project, but you have to be willing to take those sorts of compromises without giving up too much, because we want all of our work to look like it was ours.
Amena Brown:
Talk to me about, I guess a part of me wants to say the tensions between being creative and being in business. But then, in other ways, I want to hear what are the pluses of that too. I mean, I think there are tensions there. But I think when I look at Tropico Photo as a business, it seems like that's a balance that your business strikes really well. You and Forrest are doing creative work.
Amena Brown:
I mean, I've seen some of the things you all have been doing for magazine covers and stuff, I'm like, "Oh, I would have never thought about doing that." But that also means there's this back end infrastructure of how the business part gets run, how the client intake process is, how you're pitching to clients, how you price, whatever it is that you're doing. So talk about some of the lessons that you've learned in your career, and that the two of you have learned in this business that you're doing together.
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, we feel really lucky to be in the area that we're in, because creative advertising is really thriving right now. Our style is very colorful and poppy, and has a very specific sense of lighting. And those are all things that are really popular in advertising right now, which is great. It's definitely leaning towards the art side, especially for advertising to younger people. That makes it really easy for us to feel fulfilled by the work we're doing, but then also being able to get paid for our work and become part of these bigger campaigns. The biggest plus is really that you get paid.
Amena Brown:
We love to get paid.
Michelle Norris:
Getting paid is the best part, but it's also great to be doing something that you love, and a lot of times we're given so much freedom with how we do that, and that's a really great thing. And then even the times when the job is more structured by the client, you still find ways to bring something special to it. With each job, we'll pitch different ideas that we think would be fun, and it starts to become an art form of its own. When we're driving down the highway, and I'm looking at different billboards, I really enjoy it, because I feel like I'm looking at art, I'm thinking about different choices that people made and the advertisements about the lighting, the colors, the way they posed people, just stuff that becomes really interesting to us because it is an art form.
Michelle Norris:
As far as the actual business side, that is a whole learning curve of its own. I mean, I think that has been the hardest part of running your own business is figuring out pricing over time, figuring out how to talk to new clients, the words that we want to be using, do you just tell people how much things cost upfront? There's so many things you just have to work out over time, and we finally now have it nailed down pretty well where depending on the size of the company reaching out, depending on if it's an agency or if it's the owner of a business, we approach it different ways.
Michelle Norris:
So now it becomes like the more experience that you have with it, the more able you are to look at someone and say, "Well, we're going to need all the details from their project to be able to give them an estimate. Or to look, if they're really a small business, we can give them a general day rate, and then say plus props or something like that." I mean, and then there's these huge jobs where you have to get a producer, and they bid it for you. There's so many different hoops to jump through and drops like that, that are 100% different than if a local client reaches out to us.
Michelle Norris:
So all of that takes time to figure out, but thankfully, Atlanta has been a pretty helpful community and the creatives here, I feel like view each other less as competition and are more like seeing all of us as the underdog and able to give advice and be helpful and even we've had people openly share their rates with us, and I think that kind of community is amazing to have and ideally how you want to approach talking to other creatives instead of viewing everybody as your competition.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, having more of a communal experience. I mean, even when I worked with you on unnamed project that, unfortunately was never released. But there was a bigger company here in Atlanta that was partnering with another organization, and they were interested in me doing this video project. And so I had reached out to you because they were very specific style requirements. It was the first video project I'd ever done where they were like, "Here's our mood board," and I nodded in the meeting like I knew what a mood board was.
Michelle Norris:
Right. You were like, "Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes, exactly. Mood boards."
Amena Brown:
I was like, "Yeah, I have mood boards all over my house. I love a mood board."
Michelle Norris:
Exactly, show it to me.
Amena Brown:
I get out of the meeting and I'm like "Doo, doo, doo, doo."
Michelle Norris:
"What's a mood board?"
Amena Brown:
"Michelle, please come and help because they want some clothes to match a mood board." But for you, because this is even though you were helping me, you were just like, "As a side job, sometimes I help people look good."
Michelle Norris:
Right.
Amena Brown:
But you were like, "It's not my main job. But come on, girl, I'm going to take you to the mall."
Michelle Norris:
"Well, let's get them all."
Amena Brown:
"So I'm trying to help you look nice." But because this is the market I was in, it's such a major part of what your business does. When I said the words to you, you were like, "I understand this language. Let me see, let me look at it." And you were like, "I get it." And I think sometimes as creatives, when your business is growing, sometimes you do get to that point where you're like, "I'm in a room where some people are saying some things, and I don't know what they're talking about."
Michelle Norris:
And you start to learn that the language that they're using in advertising and the more corporate the company is, the language feels abstract to other people who aren't in that world. So I feel like it takes a lot of practice to be able to take that information, that mood board, those buzzwords that they're using and learn how to synthesize those, into what it actually means in real application, because we'll have people come and say, "We want it to be a citrus forward palette that really pops, but doesn't feel too young or kitschy." Things like that last-
Amena Brown:
I'm lost, I'm out.
Michelle Norris:
And you're like, I used to feel like, "What are you talking about?" And now I'm like, I think the best way is that you take it, and you just run with it. And you're like, "Okay, this is what that means to me," and throw things out there and I feel like you have to be unafraid to say, "Okay, let me make sure that I'm getting you here. So I'm thinking we're talking about bold colors, but they're rich and not too bright. And that we're talking about more sophisticated than what might be for a 20 year old or something."
Michelle Norris:
It's so confusing, but I think over time, it's really helpful to just practice bouncing ideas off other people to make sure that you get it because there used to be times when we would have a whole conversation on the phone, get off the phone, and I would be like, "What are we talking about?"
Amena Brown:
I don't know what we're talking about.
Michelle Norris:
And I don't know how to start now. I can't put together a deck, which is basically a creative pitch. I left that conversation having no idea what's going on, and now I feel a lot more unable to charge forward and ask questions if I don't know. And I think that people appreciate that, because they want to make sure that you're invested in on the same page too. And at the risk of sounding clueless, I think you're going to gain more in the end from making sure that you're connecting with them, rather than just feeling intimidated by this kind of advertising language. I mean, I guess that's what it is. But I'm like, "Where are these words coming from? Where did you get them?"
Amena Brown:
I was like, "What are you all talking about? I don't know."
Michelle Norris:
I'm like, "This isn't how people talk to each other about the way things look."
Amena Brown:
Even when I showed you the mood board from that project, I remember you using language about which of the colors were the primary ones, and then there were some that I probably would have said accent colors.
Michelle Norris:
They would be like accent colors.
Amena Brown:
And I was like, "She's also using some words that like, okay."
Michelle Norris:
Now the words are ingrained in my mind. And suddenly, I'm the advertising person. I'm like, I say this stuff now, it just comes out of my mouth.
Amena Brown:
But even working with you on that helped me to know for the next project I would do, that that was going to involve working with an ad agency or a creative agency, I felt like more equipped. After having that conversation with you, I was like, I'm talking to someone I'm familiar with. So I'm not in the meeting where you're supposed to appear you know all the things, I can look at you and be like, "What is this?"
Michelle Norris:
"What are you saying?" And it's nice too when you're working with another person like Forrest and I working together on something, we're able to get off the phone and be like, "Okay, so what I took from that is," and it's nice to have somebody bounce that off of because I honestly don't know how people put together creative decks and bid by themselves.
Michelle Norris:
Being in just like a bubble of your own mind and creativity, I'm like, that seems stressful to be like I know what direction... Because the other thing is, when people present you with this stuff, then you're supposed to process that and basically pick a direction and really commit to it and go for it and show them the way you think the project should look in finality.
Michelle Norris:
So you have to be really self assured about that and be like, "I'm picking the right thing. I feel good about this, and I'm sticking with it till the end now." So having another person as a partner on that kind of thing, I think really gives you have the support that you need to feel good about it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, you have someone else to bounce that off of to create that sharpening almost, and not to feel so crazy, because when I've had projects where I was just alone, it was like, I was there by myself creating the things and then I have to pitch that or talk to the client or whoever about it. I was just, "I don't know."
Michelle Norris:
There's a moment when you could just look over and be like, "This is a good idea." Right?
Amena Brown:
Right.
Michelle Norris:
Before I show this to a room of people, I want to clarify that we think this looks good and make sense.
Amena Brown:
Yes, yes.
Michelle Norris:
I don't know how people do without that.
Amena Brown:
If you can have a person, even if it's not your business kind of person.
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, call your friend.
Amena Brown:
Just another person to be like, "Let me just let you see this and make sure I'm not crazy." I want to ask you along those lines, how do you deal with, I'm going to use the word rejection, because there may be a better word to describe this. But in the sense of in your business, you're pitching ideas, you're pitching your work or your ability to do this work. But it may be you pitching alongside however many other people are up for the job. And so some of those, you end up being the company that gets picked, and then some of those you were hoping you were going to get picked, and you don't. How do you balance not feeling like, "I give up on all of this?"
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, that's a hard question. I think it's because especially for big advertising jobs, you're always bidding against to other people, so they're like triple bids. So when they bring you this huge job and big budget, for you get all excited about it, you always have to know that there's usually two other people that they are giving the same amount of attention, who are also putting together pitches, who are on the phone with them, who are getting debriefed all about it because it gets really involved and it makes you feel like you're like, "Surely I'm going to get this job."
Michelle Norris:
But I would say, I mean, at this point, Tropico has been around for a little more than a couple of years. And we have been so lucky to be really successful during that time, and to be able to live off of our business and fully commit to it, which is amazing. But I would say that when we get approached for these big ad jobs, we probably only get 25% of them. I mean, there are so many times when we get contacted, and you make it to whatever point with in the process, and sometimes it's like weeks in and then you just don't hear anything back and you didn't get it. At this point, I feel relatively unattached until the contract is, not even till the contract is signed, until the deposit is paid.
Amena Brown:
Oh, a word today Michelle, a word about the deposit today.
Michelle Norris:
I mean, we started I feel like I sleep so much better at night ever, maybe it was a year ago, maybe a little longer that we started saying, we have to get a 50% deposit before we can lift a finger for the project. I can't be doing anything to prep for it without a deposit. And it's amazing, because A, it helps make your income steadier, because obviously as freelance, maybe doing all these jobs, and you're not going to get paid for any of them for 30 to 90 days sometimes. Well, so it helps stabilize because you're getting paid twice as often essentially, maybe not the full amount, but still it helps you pay your bills like a normal person.
Michelle Norris:
And then on top of that, it ensures that you're not going to get screwed over because otherwise, there's nothing between them. Once you started using time on prepping for a project, I mean those are like billable hours. And then if the project falls through, you don't really have any recourse. So we do a non-refundable of 50% deposit. And then if the project falls through on their end, people just eat that money because that's what was agreed to. But back to rejection is like, you have to think of it not as a rejection, just like a missed opportunity, because we're like, there's so many times when it's not going to come through.
Michelle Norris:
I mean this is hypothetical, but in general, I think even the most successful photographers are probably talking like a 50% success rate on these types of jobs, because the other two people you're bidding against, are also amazing photographers, and you end up knowing that something else is going to come around. And for us, it always has. Even if we only are getting a few huge jobs a year, that's still really fortunate and amazing, and those pay great. And then in between, we have so many other projects to be working on and exciting personal projects and smaller clients and chances to try new things.
Michelle Norris:
And so you just have to know that you're putting your best foot forward and you're being proactive and you are going to get really great jobs, and you might not get all of them. But you have me thinking about every single project you've ever been asked about. And at this point honestly, I completely forget about most of the projects that fall through. We're so busy talking to other people already, putting together decks, planning for shoots that, it's out of sight out of mind after it falls through because you start to have enough leads where you're busy anyway. So honestly, do you want every single job? Probably not. You would lose your mind.
Amena Brown:
You'll be so tired, so tired.
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, and then you end up being happy for some of the downtime that happens naturally, because we're able to travel, we're able to work on new personal work, projects that we just want to do for art on even thinking about how we want to progress our business in the future and being able to like, we just recently worked with a local designer to make a really cool mailer that's sort of like a little art scene, and that was something we really couldn't have done if we hadn't had the downtime for it. And then, we're going to be able to send that on to people that we're excited about working with and to agencies and reps and people like that and you really can't spend the time to do those things if you don't have some downtime. So I think you just have to think of it as, things come and go, opportunities show up and then disappear out of nowhere, and you can't get to invest in anything until it's a done deal.
Amena Brown:
You just spoke a word. There's a couple of words that were in there. I mean, the first thing is just turning on its head how we view rejection, as people who are creating or putting art in the world in some way, I think we can get super emotionally attached to the things that we make or put our personal value or worth into what people say, or think or accept or reject about what we make. And I love that you used that phrase missed opportunity, which is a lot lighter. And I feel like, I'm a lot more likely to be able to move on in my life from that versus rejection sounds like sack cloth and ashes and salt over my shoulders. And now I'm just like, "How will I ever make a thing again?"
Michelle Norris:
Right. I mean, the other thing is, I feel like I have sometimes gotten caught up with other people, other creatives looking at what they're doing and feeling really jealous and being like, "Oh, man, they got all these amazing jobs." And I just feel like, what are we doing that we're not. And then I think about the fact that we are getting really great jobs, it's just easy to look on to other people and compare. And then I also then am forced to step back and think for a minute about how, we are doing the job of our dreams, living the life of our dreams, making a good living, and never have to dread going to or doing work ever. What am I talking about? What am I complaining about? It's crazy. And it makes you realize that this comparison thing will just eat you alive no matter what.
Michelle Norris:
And to me, that's almost even more dangerous than just the frustration of being rejected, is looking on at what other people are doing and thinking about how like, "Well, I'm never going to be getting those types of jobs, I'm never this." And it's like, "Be thankful for what you have." And I mean, it sounds so simple, but it really is like being a working creative, is such a joy and also never having to dread doing your job. It's like every day. When people tell me that they are dreading going back to work or something like that, it makes me remember how lucky we are, because there's not a thing in my life that I wish I didn't have to do.
Amena Brown:
Wow, that's amazing.
Michelle Norris:
I mean, I guess if I got jury duty, and you're like "Well, not that."
Amena Brown:
Then you're like, "Maybe I'll do some sketches."
Michelle Norris:
Yeah, yeah. "Maybe I'll make this a fun thing, maybe get some work done."
Amena Brown:
I love that perspective though, just to look at it. First of all, what you said about the comparison factor, I think is so true, because everything about being a creative who's also an entrepreneur, is this constant ebb and flow that sometimes in your business, you'll be in the middle of this super busy time, all the stuff's going on. And then you will naturally like you said, have some time that it's just going to slow down. And inevitably, sometimes during that slow down time, is when you're scrolling Instagram, and like, "Look at you."
Michelle Norris:
"Amazing new campaign for you."
Amena Brown:
"You're working with that. That's nice, and I'm at my house now."
Michelle Norris:
"I'm fine. I'm in my pajamas right now and that's fun." I think also for freelance you really just can't get too emotionally tied to how much work you're currently doing, because there have literally been times when I've been like, if no one ever emails us for a job again, I couldn't be happier because we're so busy, and I just can't anymore. And then literally, it'd be two weeks later, and we're like, completely dead. And I'm refreshing my email and being like, anyone need anything?
Michelle Norris:
The more you get tired of that, you're never going to be happy because when you're busy, you're tired and then when you're not busy, instead of enjoying your downtime, you're just thinking about how you hope you get a job. Well it's like that's not how you want to live. So you have to be like, "Okay, I know I'm going to get jobs and want to be good with my money when I get them so that when I don't have jobs, I can just enjoy myself and go Rollerblade on the beltline with my dog."
Amena Brown:
A word.
Michelle Norris:
Isn't that what you want to be doing?
Amena Brown:
Yes. I mean different, because I don't do outside.
Michelle Norris:
You're like not that, but.
Amena Brown:
Or dogs, but same, but me and a donut probably. I'm taking a donut down the beltline, just with my sneakers on, but that's something I'm still learning in a lot of ways. It's the thing I have to remember when the slow time comes, there's always this moment of like, you starts to freak out and then just has to be like, last summer was slow like that for our business. And I just decided, you know what? I'm going to work a four day workweek, because we'd had a really crazy year prior personally and professionally.
Amena Brown:
And I was like, "You know what? This is a summer that I don't have a lot on my plate, I'm going to work four days a week and write the stuff that I've been wanting to write, and what other job that I would be working or worked in the past when I haven't able to go." Hey, you guys this whole summer, I'm only going to be here four days a week, don't ask for me, don't ask for me. Don't worry about where I'm at. I'm not available on those days."
Michelle Norris:
I won't be here.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, and I think the other thing you said too about the comparison factor is, sometimes when we're looking at other creatives, getting whatever that opportunity is, we know our own life. So we know the hard work we put in and the struggles we go through, we know all those things. So when great opportunities come to us, we're like, "I needed that opportunity. I'm so glad." But when we're looking at someone else's life from afar, we're not able to see all of the things back there, that helped that person.
Michelle Norris:
And I mean, you're seeing it on social media, where people are literally, it's just the highlights. It's just the big campaign that you worked on, it's just the magazine cover. I mean, I'm sure that there are people who look at our Instagram feed and are like, "Man, they're just always busy making something cool I guess, and blah, blah, blah." I think one thing though is, it's nice when I follow creatives on Instagram, who are transparent about the fact that everybody has slow times. And I guess I'm always assuming that people are just constantly jet setting and shooting and getting a new campaign and this and that and the other. But that's not necessarily true, and I think that needs to be acknowledged that being slow, it doesn't mean that your business is dying. There are seasons for everything and sometimes it just happens, the less people are contacting you right then. But there's nothing wrong with that.
Michelle Norris:
And you have to learn that being freelance doesn't mean that you're trying to work a 9:00 to 5:00. So if you don't have enough work to be working eight hours a day, five days a week, that doesn't mean anything. It's like having enough work to make enough money to live on and to live the type of life that you want. But if that took you eight days last month, good for you. You don't need to be sitting at your desk, waiting every weekday for an email, so that you'll have something to do. It's like go do something else, you don't have a 9:00 to 5:00.
Amena Brown:
I am going to rewind this and listen to it myself, whenever I'm starting to freak out. I'm going to be like "Michelle, tell me again, because I need it."
Michelle Norris:
Well, just because I've had moments like that where I was starting the day at 9:00 and then did all the things and was done at 1:30, and would be like, "I just feel so lazy to go just take a walk now and whatever." And it's like, why? This is the whole point of why you do this. And then there are times when we're literally working until midnight, and why am I forgetting about these times now because I want to take a walk in the middle of the day?
Amena Brown:
Because I'm holding myself to some paradigm that I don't even have to exist on. I was just thinking about this weekend, because as you know I'm married to a DJ. So in our business, it's like the weekend is a work time. So if he's DJing Friday and Saturday night, I may have an event to do or host during that time. So in a way, it's like Monday becomes our Saturday. Monday is the day that you're like going to the grocery store and cooking food for the week or whatever you're going to do. And so I had to stop holding myself even to the weekend, like the traditional weekend. I might not get that, it starts at Friday night until like Monday morning thing.
Michelle Norris:
And it's completely made up construct. And the whole idea is that you're living outside of the normal work schedule. So why this guilt and obsession with adhering to it at the same time? I feel like it took me a little while to realize that I was like, "I need to be working eight hours a day, five days a week." And then I was like, "Honestly, so many people that I know who go to their jobs are sitting on Facebook for like half of that time." So I'm like, "I don't even know that you need eight hours."
Amena Brown:
I know I do. Well, I don't know we have Facebook when I worked corporate because it was a while ago, but I know I did all sorts of things that were not my job during that eight hours.
Michelle Norris:
That's why I'm saying. What if you can get all of your work done in whatever length of time, more power to you. It's not about filling the time with you sitting at the computer. So I mean, and of course we work on weekends, I'm surrounded right now by props that I'm painting and cutting out, so it just depends. And then sometimes you'll have some of the week off and sometimes you get a whole weekend off and some of the week off and then sometimes you work 18 hours a day for two weeks.
Amena Brown:
Right, until the project gets done.
Michelle Norris:
Until it's done.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Can you speak to the importance of creating work, not just for clients, because one of the things that you had talked about before that I'd love for you to speak to more, is with the work that you're doing with Tropico in your business you and Forrest. Obviously, part of your creativity is going towards, this is the thing the client is wanting or needs, how do we come around that with unique ideas or ideas that come from us, that we're trying to come up with these ideas that we know are unique to us, right?
Amena Brown:
But then also, I think sometimes we can forget to go back and just make stuff because it's fun. So talk about that part. Is that a part of your process as well. Do the two of you have times that you're like, "You know what? We're going to make some stuff that's not for anybody or anything, just because we want to because it's fun."
Michelle Norris:
Right. I think that in the beginning, we did that all the time. That's really how we built our portfolio, was just thinking of fun things that we'd like to shoot. Once we started getting really busy with client work, I felt like it did fall by the wayside at different points. We were intermittently making things, and one of our biggest times has been when we'll take a long trip, we do a lot of shooting, which is a great way to make work that's just for us. But we had the realization earlier this year, that we hadn't done a portfolio project. And I don't know, I mean maybe almost a year at that point. So we actually did one and I guess it was in February, it feels like forever ago. When is it now? It's April?
Amena Brown:
Right. I was like it's July. It feels like December.
Michelle Norris:
I'm like, I don't know. It's August? So we did a portfolio project in February called Big Sun, and it's not out yet. But we're so excited about it. It was such a huge undertaking, because it's one of those things that I was talking about earlier where you commit to an idea, and then you're like, I am now committed to it, and I have to go with a full force because I had been very inspired by these David Hockney pool paintings. And I was like, "I want to paint a huge psych wall with a painting that I paint, and then we're going to paint it huge. And then these girls are going to be on it."
Michelle Norris:
And so we had these three beautiful women of color together wearing a local designer, and we had so many people that helped us out with it and helped style and paint, and props and so many different parts that go into production, but it ended up just being a massive undertaking. I'm not a muralist. So I, for the first time ever being like, I'm going to translate, I'm not a painter either. So of course I do this design, and then literally a few days before we start the painting, I'm talking to Forrest and I'm like, "Is this so stupid?"
Amena Brown:
Let me get some confirmation on this decision that I'm making right here.
Michelle Norris:
I was like, "Before we spend all this money on this portfolio project," because the other thing is, right now the kind of portfolio work that's important to us, is not only stuff that excites us, but it's also going to show a new aspect of what we can do.
Amena Brown:
That's good.
Michelle Norris:
So for this, we were like, we really want to be shooting more people, we wanted to lean a little bit more fashion, but also art, stuff that we don't dabble in as much with our work currently, and this was exactly that. But I was like, I've never seen someone do something like this. So this like weird, painted, surrealist world the girls are in, is actually representational because it had a pool and buildings and stuff. You could tell what was going on. We had a diving board that's made out of a plank of wood that's into the fake pool. It's so much happening, and I was very worried it was going to be like the dumbest thing in the whole world, two days before when we had already done all this work, but it turned out so amazing.
Michelle Norris:
It is my favorite project we've ever done, and I can't wait to show people. But that's kind of the leap that you have to take of saying, "I have an idea, I'm going to stick with it now, and I'm just going to trust that it's going to be cool. And it ended up really turning out that way. But I think another stress on top was that, when you start getting into production that big, you really are spending a lot of money to make it. It's not free. And even though a lot of people are willingly volunteering their time, there's just concrete cost like this much paint and shoes that we can't return, they're going to get scuffed.
Michelle Norris:
Just the cost of props. Things add up a crazy amount, even when so many people are helping you out, and it's something that you need to account for and be willing to do because it's completely worthwhile. But you have to commit even more, because you're saying it's not going to be the kind of thing where if it turns out bad, there's no big deal. If it turns out bad, it was $3,000.
Amena Brown:
And I want all those dollars, I need them.
Michelle Norris:
And you're like $3,000 to look really bad, I guess. But it was amazing, and I'm excited for it. And I think that it kind of got me excited again about just making work for us and just showing what we can do and feeling super passionate about a project and interaction and not having anybody to report to about it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I mean, I just had another creative who gave me a talk that like a pep. I want to say it was a pep talk, but I mean kind of, but in your... A little bit, that's like a pep talk. She was giving me this talk as a creative, you should be willing to invest in yourself, invest in the direction you want to see your career go, because I was kind of standing at that fork in the road of like, "Well, I could put this money into this thing I want to make, and I'm a little scared thinking about putting that money into it."
Amena Brown:
And just hearing you share the story of this project that you were working on, it encourages me also along the lines of what she was trying to say like, as a creative, don't be afraid to put that investment into yourself, and to your business.
Michelle Norris:
And I think it's a little counterintuitive, because a lot of creatives work from the point. And I mean we do too in general, is to spend as little as you can, and try to make as much as you can without putting too much into a project like money wise. How to keep it really affordable. But then there's times when you just have to make the leap and be like, "I want this to be the best it can be, and there's money that needs to go back into the business, and that's how it works." And you realize that creatives are the only ones who don't think of it that way. Everybody else is like, "You have to spend money on your business to make money. That's how business works."
Michelle Norris:
But I think creatives skirt that a little bit and are like, "Oh, no. I just pay for materials, but then I try to keep it pretty low key." So it's funny though, because you never know the way that things are going to come back. After doing this project, it was so serendipitous. The project obviously isn't even out yet, and we had been posting behind the scenes on Instagram. Well, the creative directors that we know follow us from Atlanta Magazine, saw the behind the scenes, and then reached out literally less than a week later. And were like, "We want you guys to do something like this for the cover of next month's issue."
Michelle Norris:
So we shot that, and it literally was like an exact. It's rare when you make things that you see it come back to you so instantly and clearly and know where it came from. But this was one of those things where it was like, you did a portfolio project immediately and I got a job from said project that directly relates to it. And I was like, "Man, you never know, you really don't." And we shot it at the same studio, we did a big painting for it, it was really correlated to the project, which is awesome.
Michelle Norris:
It's oversimplified version of what portfolio work does for you, but it also is a good representation for, this is the idea. You make something for yourself that you're just excited about, and then even if this wasn't your intention, clients see that, they like it, and then they're going to come to you for that sort of work. And if they can't see that in your portfolio, then they're never going to think of you for it.
Amena Brown:
A word today Michelle, a word today. That's so inspiring. It's really inspiring me just to think about that and as I think finally I go through different stages where I'm writing and then I'm taking the writing for stage. So now, it's like, I'm back at the beginning of that cycle, which is getting ready to go into the writing, which I want to procrastinate and not do because, you know?
Michelle Norris:
It's the [inaudible 00:43:10]. Getting started on a new project is like that. Even if you like what you do, you're like, getting started is so hard.
Amena Brown:
I'm like, "No, are there dishes I can..."
Michelle Norris:
I know. Literally anything, house will be sparkling clean, before a project.
Amena Brown:
I was going to do when you said sit down and do this. But it's so interesting how sitting down to do that work in this nurturing way, for yourself as a creative and for your business, to me does bring this good energy to you. And sometimes it brings clients to you like in the story you just told.
Michelle Norris:
I really don't think there's any time when you exert creative energy, where it's for nothing. In some way or another, that ends up serving you. And whether it's as obvious as it was in this case, or whether it's something more subtle or even years later, I think that those things come back and they're a big deal. And there's not a time when you're like "Man, I wish I hadn't spent that time on that creative project." I don't think you should ever feel like that, you know?
Amena Brown:
Yeah. What tips would you give to people who are just starting in photography? They're maybe at the very beginning, getting out of school if they've decided to go to school for photography, or they're in the hobby phase, but contemplating if that hobby should turn into more of a side hustle, more of a business. What are some things you would say, just the things you've learned as a photographer, the things you've learned in your business that would be good for that photographer on the edge of maybe jumping more into this. What should they be thinking about?
Michelle Norris:
I think the biggest point and the thing I tell people most often, is actually what I brought up earlier about branding yourself because there's going to be a million people who can do headshots, who can shoot weddings, and even if those are the things you want to do, amazing. But figure out what it is that you can bring to that that makes you special, because you don't want to be competing for having the lowest rate. And if you don't have something special that you bring to it that people want you for, and know that only you can deliver, then you always will be competing to be cheaper than other people, which is the last thing that you want.
Michelle Norris:
And I think whenever you brand yourself, it makes you more able to say like, "This is why I can do this job in a way that's really special and amazing." Instead of having it to come for it from the direction of saying like, "Here's how much money I can save you." It's simultaneously not good for a business and also not really good for the way that you think about what you bring to a project. So I think branding yourself and figuring out what you can bring to the table that's special and that's consistent, and that's going to make you desirable specifically, is ultimately the most important part.
Michelle Norris:
Outside of that, I think that you really have to get your business stuff together. Figure out the things we were talking about, how you're going to charge for things, what questions you're going to ask clients when they talk to you, the kind of language that you use when you're talking to clients. You want to sound competent and friendly. But you also want to be firm about things like your rate and about how things need to be done especially, because it just garners you respect over time so people don't try to walk all over you, because as a creative, I think there's going to be a lot of times when people think they can demand things from you that they wouldn't from somebody else.
Michelle Norris:
I'm trying to think of a good example for this of a really practical job. If a lawyer tells you it's going to take them a certain amount of time to put together some paperwork, you're probably not going to be like, "Well, could you do it in a couple days instead?" Well, you're like, no, they just told you how they do it. And I think that with creative jobs, there's a lot of times when people just think that we're maybe making stuff up when you're like, "Well, our turnaround is 14 business days." People feel like, "That sounds really long, could it be shorter?" And you're like, "No, do you want it to be wack? If you would like the final product to be wack, then sure."
Amena Brown:
"Certainly tomorrow, we could give you something."
Michelle Norris:
"I could give them to you instantly." But yeah, it becomes this thing where and I don't think people are intending to push people around. But I think it's just the way that creative jobs are perceived. When people just asked you, if you can come down on your rate, if you can do things for free. Just stuff they wouldn't ask other people who have professions that are more clearly outlined, maybe. And I think finding your footing with that and feeling really confident about what you're going to say, is important. And the other thing is, just on a completely practical level, you're going to be able to do this stuff a lot better if you're not feeling panicked for money. So I would say-
Amena Brown:
Yeah, that's a good point.
Michelle Norris:
Because everyone's always like, "Go out and be firm, and blah, blah." But you're like, if you need the cash and this job is going to go away, if you can't do it for half, then you're going to do the job. So I think the idea is really that you want to get financially sound going into it. So even if you want to take it up as your side hustle and save up, a lot of people say that the standard is that you should have three months of living saved up for everything, so that if you don't get a job for two months, you're not going to be panicked, and that's going to let you be more selective about the kind of work that you want to get.
Michelle Norris:
It's going to let you be more selective about the kind of clients that you want to choose about what you put out there. And I think that there's a lot of flailing that happens when people first go freelance that maybe makes you make decisions that aren't going to look great for your business in the long term. And you're going to be able to think a lot more long term if you feel like you're not hard up for cash from the get go, which I feel like not enough people say. People are just like, "Go pursue your dream," and you're like, "With money."
Amena Brown:
Right, because otherwise, I'm going to be crying, and not have a place to live.
Michelle Norris:
Or you're going to get burnt out really fast, where you go into freelance, try it for two months, it's traumatizing because you thought you were going to get kicked out of your apartment. And then you're like, "I can't do freelance." You're like, "Well, that wasn't really a fair shot maybe," because at this point, freelance feels just like a real job to me. I mean, which is amazing to get jobs actively enough and get paid enough that you're like, you get a salary basically. So if you start from the right place, then you're going to be in better footing to pursue your long term goals, versus just having to take every single job now.
Amena Brown:
Michelle is telling you all the business because when I have creatives come up to me and ask me for advice on this and they're like, "I'm working this job, I hate so much," and I really want to fill in the blank with whatever creative thing they love. And typically one of the first things I say is I'm like, "I'm about to tell you something that's not sexy, and it's not going to feel like yeah, I'm doing my dream, but maybe don't quit yet-"
Michelle Norris:
You have to stay at the top for a minute.
Amena Brown:
"Until you save up this money, and then do your thing you've been doing on the side and act like that money doesn't exist, the money that you make from that and stack money and stack money and stack money, until when you do decide to leave your job, you're making the transition, versus you doing what I did which was, "I hate this corporate job, quit." So then I'm like, "Hey, world. I'm available for gig." And the world's like, "We can't hear you."
Michelle Norris:
"Bring it to me now."
Amena Brown:
Was like, "We can't hear you. Sorry, I don't know who you are yet." I'm like, "What? No one knows who I am. I'm here in my apartment. Come on. I'm available. Hello, hello." No, I had to learn that totally the hard way.
Michelle Norris:
I mean, I think that that is kind of part of it though, because Forrest and I each did assisting and he was a photography assistant, I was a stylist assistant for a while. And then I decided I didn't like styling by itself, and I was like, "This is not what I want to do." I and I hit this point. I guess it was a little over a couple years ago. Right before Christmas I was like, "I am not taking a single other assisting job in the new year." And I was like, "I'm only doing photography, I'm going to put my energy 100% in Tropico Photo and we are going to live off of this."
Michelle Norris:
I cannot say for a fact that I had three months saved up then, I think I probably almost definitely did not. But I feel like, we were really fortunate that we put that out into the world, we spent all this time working on the website, getting our great logo together, starting our Instagram, and we started to get jobs. It was just like, it happened, we put it out into the world, and that doesn't mean that that can't happen for whoever's doing it, I think it's probably a lot less traumatizing if you have money involved already.
Michelle Norris:
But another thing that that actually brings up is that, don't like half ass anything going in, treat it like you're a real, real business. Get a great website, don't start with some janky website, make it nice from the get. Get a great logo, pay a graphic designer to make a logo for you.
Amena Brown:
Pay a graphic designer people, I'm serious.
Michelle Norris:
That is very real. Pay them to make your cards. Just stuff that's like, a lot of people start DIY and it's just going to make you look unprofessional, because I think that was one thing we had going for us was what we were presenting from the get go, was what we still have now, as far as like website, as far as our logo, as the curation of our Instagram, just making sure that it looks all the way there. Don't start and then post a picture of your cat or something. Do it all the way when you do it.
Amena Brown:
Yes, like you're forecasting in a way.
Michelle Norris:
Exactly.
Amena Brown:
You're forecasting that you already won.
Michelle Norris:
So imagine if you're already a famous working photographer, that's what it needs to look like now. And I feel like that gets you so much further than when people tiptoe into stuff and they're like, "Here's a picture. Don't be posting your behind the scenes, stuff on your feed. Think about what you think looks really nice. Don't come at it from the point of like, "Well, I'm not like a professional photographer yet." And you're like, "If that's what you want, that's what you want it to look like that. That's what it is." So I feel like all of those things, hopefully will help you get going.
Amena Brown:
Michelle just gave you out of business in here. I hope you all were taking notes. I'm going to listen back and take notes too. Even though I don't take a picture because I have no visual gifts of any kind, so I always have to seek a professional on that. I'm like, "Someone please help me look nice. Please take this picture. I don't know where the lighting is. I just don't know anything."
Michelle Norris:
I mean, that's kind of the thing for anything though. Whatever creative field you're going to, is pay the people that do the stuff you don't do. I mean, we're always working with graphic designers. I mean, graphic designers are really the main people actually because we're like, even for videos, like the last project, the Big Sun project, we did a video on like, you got to pay your graphic designer friend to do the lettering for the title page and for the end and that, Just stuff, you need everything to look really nice.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. And to represent where you are headed, where you see yourself going. I think that's such a powerful point.
Michelle Norris:
That's the perfect way to say it is that you're going to go ahead and put forward where you want to be and don't make it look like you're unsure right now.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, so good. Michelle. I hope you were able to capture all the gems from this conversation with Michelle Norris, especially for those of you that work in creative fields. But no worries if you didn't because that's what the show notes are for. Check out Amena Brown.com/HER With Amena for the show notes from this, or any HER With Amena episodes, you can find out more about Michelle and Tropico Photo at tropicophoto.com, and you can follow on Instagram at Tropico Photo.
Amena Brown:
For this week's edition of Give Her A Crown, I'd like to shout out photographer Camille Seaman. Camille was born in 1969 to a Native American Shinnecock tribe father, and an African American mother. Her photographs have been published in National Geographic Magazine, Time Magazine, Newsweek, among many others. Camille Seamen strongly believes in capturing photographs that articulate that humans are not separate from nature.
Amena Brown:
In a BuzzFeed article, Camille said, "As a child, I knew I was different from the other children at school, but I could not articulate what that difference was. I was troubled when the textbooks we read spoke about natives in the past tense, always implying that we no longer existed. We are still here. When you see these portraits, you may find we no longer look like you think we ought to. But that doesn't mean we are not here. It's time for a new record of Native America." Photographer Camille Seaman, Give Her A Crown. HER With Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.