Amena Brown:
Hey, everybody. It's rare these days that I get to record with guests in person, but I was able to record this week's episode in person as I was filming video for Bethaney B. Wilkinson's book launch for her new book The Diversity Gap: Where Good Intentions Meet True Cultural Change. Listen in as Bethaney talks about the creative process behind her book, advice that she would give women of color as they navigate workspaces, and how she cares for herself as a Black woman leader. Check it out.
Amena Brown:
Hey everybody, welcome to a book celebration. This is a celebration, okay. I'm happy to be your host. I am spoken word poet and host of the podcast HER With Amena Brown, and I am Amena Brown. So that worked out pretty good, right? And we are here to be in conversation with Bethaney B. Wilkinson author of, and I'm going to hold this book up 10,000 times, do y'all understand me? I'm going to hold this up as many times as I can because every time I hold it up, I want you to think I need to buy five of those, I know five people that need this book, I need to buy 10 of those. We're here with Beth B Wilkinson, author of The Diversity Gap: Where Good Intentions Meet True Cultural Change. And I'm excited to be your host today not only because I respect Bethaney's work so much, but also because she's my friend. So our time together today is going to be a combination of book event, conversation, and girlfriend time, that is what we're bringing you.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
That's it.
Amena Brown:
So Bethaney, talk to me, this is a big accomplishment, your book is out. These are my out fingers, your book is out now. It's out now, how do you feel?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
That is a big question and a good one. I feel a lot of things, I feel so many things, I feel firstly just humbled and honored and grateful to be in conversation with you because I admire you so much. And you've been such a big part of my book writing journey just as a person, as a creative. But I feel excited, I'm excited for people to read it, I'm excited for people to grapple with the ideas, to explore what it looks like to apply those ideas. I am nervous because writing a book where you talk about racism and white supremacy in 2021 can be stressful. You never know what the people are going to say or do or how the internet's going to respond. So I'm a little nervous about that. I feel grateful, I feel ready, I feel ready for this moment. I feel like it's been a long time coming, lots of hours, lots of tears, lots of emotional work and labor and release and relief even. And so I feel ready, I'm here.
Amena Brown:
I love that. I love that ready is the word that came to your mind, I love that. That feels so powerful. And I want to talk a little bit about the process that led to this book because you and I both as writers remember the moments where we would be at someone else's event watching them tell their story about their book. Now, I feel this thing inside like I know I'm supposed to write books too, wow, the dream inside. And for me for a while not knowing that many authors to be able to find out how does the process actually happen, how does it just go from being a dream maybe you had when you were a little girl or at some other point in life to now this is reality? So take us back, how did you arrive at the point where you were like, "I'm going to write a book"? What was that process like?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
So I think, not even I think, I wanted to write a book for a long time. I think my whole life loved writing. English was always my jam, it's the gift that I love to bring to the world always. So I knew I wanted to write a book probably from the time I was really little. But as I became an adult, it was this very mysterious process. It seems like there's this group of people and they had the book writing class in high school, I missed that class. But I would say there were a couple of experiences that really shifted that for me. One was hearing you actually speak at an event in 2016 where you unpacked how as a writer it's important to create a book proposal because that helps you know if you have enough to actually fill a book or is it just a blog post or is it an ebook?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
That framing really helped me because I was like, "I have a lot of things to say, but do I have enough to say to fill a book? And then what size book?" So making that really practical decision was important like, okay, I need to have enough to say to fill a book. But then also I had another mentor tell me, "Hey, Bethaney, authors are people who have something to say, so what do you want to say?" And when it came down to it, I was like, "Well, I have a lot of thoughts and opinions, but what I want to say right now is that hello people, racism's the problem in your organizations, it's not just recruiting diverse talent." At the time, that was the thing that I had a lot to say about. And so thinking through all these different pieces, I was like, "Okay, I'm ready because I have something to say. I think I have enough to say to fill an entire book." And that was probably in 2017, 20 18 that I came to that conclusion.
Amena Brown:
Okay. So I want to talk about the journey from I think I'm going to write a book to I know it's gonna be about the diversity gap. I remember my last book, the frame of the book came to me first that I knew how I wanted chapters to be structured and all those things. And then I was like, "Crap, what am I going to say? I haven't thought about the frame of this, what am I going to say?" And then it took a moment in life where I knew it is this that is supposed to go in the frame of that book. So you had these ideas because you were already doing work in, I guess what we would now call in corporate or nonprofit type of world in DEI, in Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, you are already doing some work there. In what would be in some faith-based spaces would be considered racial reconciliation work. You are already doing some of that work there. So you had an inkling like something in this is book. How did you know the diversity gap is what this book was gonna be?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I think part of that was listening closely to my own experience. I lived the diversity gap before I wrote about it being the first or only Black women on these teams and these organizations constantly or regularly having to or choosing to speak into the racial dynamics of those places. I was living it, and so it made sense to me to expound upon that. I would also say that I had some training in it through my education and then just my experience. Well, I have a day where I sat down with index cards, this process this might work for some people. It might not work for others, but it worked for me where I took index cards, three by five index cards, I bought a little box. And I just wrote out every idea, every author, every thought leader, every reference I had in just my body, in my mind related to race, racial justice, organizational culture, and leadership.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
And I had hundreds of cards by the end of writing them all down. And then I sorted them all into categories. I did that probably a couple times to see, okay, what's really sticking out, what's not? And then I started to piece them together. It was an iterative process of listening to my own experience, listening to the tensions I would say of other people around me as well because I wanted to create something that I knew would be helpful and then organizing what I knew based on what I'd read and heard. I'm a big learner, I'm very curious, so I just needed to pull it all together. I was honestly driving down the road one day on my way to go meet a friend when the title The Diversity Gap came to me. And so it wasn't that I knew that was going to happen, it was just what should I call this? And I don't know where it came from, it just dropped in my spirit while I was driving to Decatur.
Amena Brown:
I love that because I do remember before writing a book people saying things to me like it will just come to you certain things. And that would just sound so strange and very mysterious and not practical at all to me when they say those thing. But that is a part of the book writing process that there are these mysterious moments in a way that it comes to you and your soul knows this is what is next a part of the process or this is what this is supposed to be even if you don't have all of the details yet. You didn't have all the details when The Diversity Gap came to you. But I love that, and I love that that mystery is a part of it. Sometimes I wish it wasn't because I love to have a lot of plans that are going to work out exactly the way I plan them is better for me. But writing a book's not like that. You can make lots of plans, you can have all of your outline and everything, and you have to be prepared that in the process there will obviously be some moments.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Absolutely. And I'm also a big fan of checking for what resonates with people. When I said the diversity gap to people, they got it without too much explanation. And I was looking for something that would be that simple because I knew that the diversity gap as a project, as an initiative would exist along multiple platforms. I have a podcast, I have event series, that sort of thing. So it was helpful once it did drop to find that it resonated with others. I think that was an important part of my process.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, no, I get that. Let me ask about your book writing process, and this is just a nosy curiosity of mine. I would like to know what were the things that you needed when you were writing this. What were the must haves once you got into the writing process? I'll tell you a couple of mine. I craved a lot of carbohydrates whenever I'm in book writing mode and then discovered that I can't exist on carbohydrates.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Not alone.
Amena Brown:
Alone, alone. I can exist. But brownies is not a solid nutrient.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Is it though? I mean, it might be.
Amena Brown:
And like it needs other things to supplement it, especially if that's what you're doing every day. I think now that I think about it maybe I needed something that was bringing a comfort to me or something. So that was brownies for a while. And then I was like, "Let me downgrade to dark chocolate, which at least has antioxidants."
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Yes, some nutritional benefits. Though I think butter and brownies does too, but I hear you.
Amena Brown:
It was nutritional to my soul at the very least. So I want to know from you what were the things, could be the snacks that you remember being your must have when you were writing this, was there music that you were listening to at the time? Give us a little window into that part.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
For me, it was all environmental. So I needed my space heater. And if I couldn't have my space heater, I needed my heated blanket. Something about the warmth helped me get snuggled in and comfortable. No matter what the temperature was outside, I needed those things. I also needed a candle. That just kind of, and it still does, it just brings me into the moment and helps me focus. So that was a big part of my process. I love a good glass of wine. So somewhere to the brownies, you got to reign it in after a period of time. But a good glass of wine would be really great and then of course coffee if it's morning time. So most of my things were environmental. Give me the warmth, give me the space heater, give me the cozy and my candle.
Amena Brown:
I love that, I love that. I actually had a friend tell me that lighting a candle is a part of her writing process. And I had never done that until recently. And I was like, "Oh, it does feel nice."
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
It does something, yeah. It's like it sets the intention.
Amena Brown:
Just that moment of watching this containable fire, I think there's something to that and the writing process. And that writing a book really ... And I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this because for me because my books more so they were lending themselves to more of a memoir style. I felt like I was digging into my soul a lot and I didn't account for how hard that was going to be. Did you feel that in writing this book as well because this book was based on your research? And it was based on your lived experience in a lot of work environments. Did you feel that like, what's going on here?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Yes. I really love that you're asking this question because I think about it a lot in retrospect. I think there's a phenomenon in the world, in organizations where the experiences, the trauma of Black people and specifically Black women is manipulated, it's gawked at in a way that's really unhealthy and dysfunctional. And I had to be really focused on protecting myself, I needed boundaries. Every part of my story, I don't owe that to leaders, I just don't owe that to them. And I don't want my story to be used or commodified. And then there are other parts of my story that do really illustrate these points in ways that I need to illustrate some of these points.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
So it was a give and take, a push and pull for me because I was trying to not feed into the unhealthy reliance on black people's trauma to educate white folks and leaders while also telling the truth of our experiences. And so in some moments it was too much and I was like, "That's for the journal and for therapy, that's not for the world." And then there were other times where I could tell like, "Okay, I can share this story, I think it's the right one for me to give away." So I had to navigate those boundaries.
Amena Brown:
Oh, that's so smart. That's so smart and so wise and something that I hope I think about the next time that I write a book because I did not do that in my first experiences there. And that came back to bite me in some ways. I remember being in therapy post the book coming out, and of course my therapist was like, "Please remain in therapy while you're writing your next book." But she was also like, "Do that so that you can have the tools to weigh out, to be in a healthy place to weigh out what is ... Some things we write are healing for us even if they're never meant to be in the public. And then there are some things that we write that were healing for us at a time that we now feel in a place where we want to share that because we think it will be helpful for other people, but it does take being in a healthy place as a writer to be able to discern that. So I'm so glad that you were able to do that.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Well, it's interesting because I was writing a lot of it during summer 2020. And so I was having to make sense of my experience as a Black woman in a lot of different places, in a lot of different ways. And watching other authors, other Black folks share their experiences. I feel like I was a part of a broader community and we were all sorting out what's for me, what's for them, what's healing, what's retraumatizing? And so I was privy to those conversations, and it helped me to decide how I wanted to show up to this particular project because I had all of that online interaction if nothing else.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about the content that's inside this book because some of the people that are watching this, they've got their books that in hand already, and some people that are tuning into this or will be listening to this, this will be their, "Oh, I need to get this book." And I remember the first time I heard you sharing the content from The Diversity Gap research. And I felt very emotional after your presentation, and I'm sure I felt that for layers of reasons. Obviously I felt it partly because you're my friend and I was just so proud of you because it was so brilliant. And getting to see that brilliance really expanded upon in this book was just wonderful to read. But my first time seeing you share this, share that this is why I'm calling this The Diversity Gap, this is what the people of color I interviewed said their workplaces were like when they were there thriving.
Amena Brown:
I remember that was a big part of your presentation, and it was so wonderful to me first of all to hear about people of color thriving in their workplaces. So that had to be like, okay, hearing that other people of color are saying this and your research says it's possible for there to be workplaces that are equitable, that are as safe as safe can be for people of color in America. So I felt this, oh my gosh, I'm so proud of her, oh my gosh, I'm glad that this could exist. I'm glad that there's going to be tools to help people who are like, "It doesn't exist at our workplace right now." So I want you to answer for us what do you want people who read this to gain from it?
Amena Brown:
There are going to be a lot of leaders reading this book, and there are a lot of leaders who need to know about this book so they can read it. And they're just going to be people whether they are in those leadership hiring C-suite positions, they're going to be people reading this also who felt like I felt, I felt very seen, I felt very heard and understood by the information you were rolling out to us at this event. So talk about that, what do you want people to gain from this? When somebody gets to, they get all the way to the index of this book, they read it from the dedication and they made it to the index, what are you hoping they walk away with?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I want them to walk away with a commitment to understanding the impact of their good intentions. And I want them to know that there are action steps they can take today to start creating an environment that is more dignifying and humanizing and celebratory and dignifying of people of color in their workplace. This is a second thing I want them to know, but I also want them to know that the issues we're facing exist beyond the four walls of the institution they're leading. They're societal, they're structural, they're systemic. And I don't say that to be overwhelming, I think a lot of times that makes people think, "Oh wow, I can't do anything about that." But no, it's just like you have to know what you're dealing with. You have to name it honestly to figure out your next best step in that direction.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
At the end of the book, I share, so I lay out all the things in the book. But at the end of the book, I share a section on experiments and strategies because I wanted to give everything I've seen and learned and heard about to the audience to say, "Hey, everything in this book's not for you. Take what works for you, scrap what doesn't, but find what works in your context. And I want people to understand the big picture and then have access to the tools to go do something about it."
Amena Brown:
That's one of my favorite things about this book is how practical it is and how it is really moving folks beyond what can be I think for some people, what we hope are the feel-good conversations. What we hope are, this is me telling my age a little Bethaney, but what we hope is the United Colors of Benetton of this moment, what we hope is the kumbaya because we all sat at a table and we ate injera together. And we had a beautiful conversation. You told me what makes you different from me, and I told you what makes me different from you. We think that's the work. And I love in this book that you are laying out that that is the very, very tip of the real work that we need to get to.
Amena Brown:
We need to not be so focused on what makes us feel good or feel better, but we actually need to look at the systems and practices of what we're doing in our work teams, how we actually make things more equitable. And that's going to take some leadership and some choices and some probably unpopular, uncomfortable decisions depending on the institution. Let's get into the book. The people need to hear a sample, a passage, Bethaney. Can you pick one of your ... I mean, it's hard to say, what is a favorite passage in a whole book that you wrote? But can you pick a passage that you would love to share with us? Give us a little glimpse of some things that are in this book.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Yes, absolutely. So one of my favorite chapters, it's like choosing from your children. But one of my favorite chapters is the second one, and it's all about impact over intentions. And in this chapter I share direct quotes from people I interviewed about their experiences in their majority white cultural context and organizations. So I want to read a little bit of what one woman said, and then I want to read some of the aggregating things that all of them said. This is a Black woman who works for a national faith-based nonprofit. In many of her roles, she was the only Black person on her team. Over time she has intentionally worked to shift her role within the organization to focus on working with other Black folks and other underrepresented racial minorities. So she's pivoting while she's working in this one organization. My question to her was, if you could tell your white peers one thing without fear of being misunderstood or silenced, what would it be?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
And she said, this is her quote, she says, "You will never understand the real cost of being in my body within this white space." Recognize there is a cost, a holistic cost. For you, you just have to show up to work each day. But for me and for other non-white folks, we have to show up to work and deal with your microaggressions and deal with creating strategy for all the people of color and do our jobs excellently because we know we're going to be judged harsher. We end up saying yes to doing more work because we're often the only people of color in the organization. It can pile so high to the point where it has a holistic cost on my emotional, physiological, and physical wellbeing. And white folks cannot understand this cost. Yes, I have agency, and yes I'm learning to make different decisions, but the cost is real, and you are part of that cost. I don't want you to feel sorry for me, but you need to do something different in your very being in order to change who we are as an organization and how we function because I'm human.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
So later on I go on to say, many interviewees gave voice to the extra emotional labor required to simply do our jobs at work every day. I say our because this is my experience too. There is the emotional labor of smiling through uncomfortable and offensive interactions, the emotional labor of managing our own biases and the biases of others, the emotional labor of suppressing our counter narratives to be seen as a team player. The emotional labor of downplaying are true thoughts and feelings to avoid being stereotyped as angry or difficult. There is also the emotional and psychological toll of having to work out the sadness, anger, frustration, and disrespect we feel on an ongoing basis while trying to maintain perfect composure on the outside. This is of course on top of doing the job we are paid to do. What would it take to create environments where people of color can do their best work without the ongoing distraction and burden of racism and white supremacy culture?
Amena Brown:
I just feel my feelings. I feel my feelings because one of the other things I loved about the book, Bethaney, that I think is a part of actually doing this work, actually doing the work of seeing that eventually there is no diversity gap is it requires imagination, it requires reimagining how we work. I think when we think about diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, when we think about that work especially if we haven't been participating in it, we're thinking about it in, is it about the numbers? Is it about the number of people that fit these slots that I have? Is it about this strategy that I can write down somewhere or put in a caption on social media? But there is creativity to this as well because we get a chance to reimagine.
Amena Brown:
I love that thought, it's a powerful thing to think about what would this place be like if there were not racism or white supremacy. And maybe in this lifetime or in another however many lifetimes, maybe there will never be a world exactly 0% that. But the fact that we can lead ourselves to imagining that means we get as close as we can. We do that in our lifetime so that the leaders after us can do what they can do in their lifetime. And I love that imagination is a part of this too.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Yes. There are so many questions sprinkle throughout the book that I don't answer because again I do think it's different for everyone. But I do want to evoke that imagination, I do want us to step back and think, what does this mean for us? Yes, maybe it means starting a DEI task force. Those can be helpful, research shows. But maybe it's about how you plan your team outings and who's invited to those. And is it affordable? Is it the sort of activity that one cultural group prefers over another? Everybody's not trying to go hiking, everybody's not trying to go bowling, everybody doesn't drink beer. Some people don't have that flexibility in their schedules because they're taking care of kids, whatever it might be. So some of it is through those formal diversity, equity, inclusion channels. But I find that a lot of it is all the other stuff.
Amena Brown:
I'll tell you something that I've been dreaming about. This is connected, but it's a little bit of a random thought. I still want to share it with you and get your thoughts on it. I was telling someone recently, If I ever have a company where I have multiple employees, I was like, I would love to have Black Women Days that are only for Black women employees. But it's not a sick day, and it's not your PTO, it's a separate bank of days. And that you could call in sometimes and just be like I need a Black Woman Day.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Wow, that stretches my imagination Amena. I'm like, okay, I love this. There's no HR, so you can do that.
Amena Brown:
I mean, Black women need a day, a week, we need our time. And I wish I had that but I could dull it out in some way. I thought about that recently, I was just reimagining things because I was talking to a friend of mine, and we were talking about all the things that Black women carry in our workspace, in our personal lives. It was a funny but real thought that I was like-
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Oh, I love it.
Amena Brown:
Can we get a Black Woman Day?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
There you go.
Amena Brown:
Because at first I was like, "It could be like Juneteenth." And I was like, "No, no, no, no. It needs to be at my choice, at the choice of the Black woman when she can take the day.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I think that's a great idea. I've seen organizations set aside intentional funds to send their employees who are having a minority experience, a variety of identities, they get to go be a part of communities that support them and it's paid for by the organization or the company. I don't think that's a stretch, I think that's beautiful.
Amena Brown:
We're going to work on this, this is how we're going to work on the diversity gap as well. I want to ask some advice questions. And some of these you are covering here in the book. I know some of your answers will be here in this book that you too can have yourself. Let's start with this, if a woman of color is being interviewed for a job and in the interview process, in a typical average interview process you're going to possibly have multiple interviews with different leaders in the company. You may actually tour the facility at some point and see what the lay of the land is like, which means you make it a view on the other people who work there. What are some things as a woman of color that you would tell another woman of color here's some things you should think about when you're considering going into work for a company?
Amena Brown:
Because I have had some moments where there were a lot of things I didn't consider. And then I got hired or got asked to be a contractor, so in a way I wasn't full-time there, but it was still a place I worked pretty consistently. And then I got in there and was like, "No, I can't." So now when I talk with other women of color, and for the women of color who may be watching or listening now having some tools, what are a couple of those tools you would say if you're considering working for a company and you want to know is this the place for you as a woman of color, what are those couple of things you would say think about this?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
The first thing that comes to mind is to assess how much you have to code switch to go to the interview. And so if you are feeling the need to tone down the color of your nails or how you style your hair or what you would naturally wear to the workplace. I'm not saying that's a deal breaker, I'm just saying be mindful of how you are already sensing you need to show up to this space because that's data for you. Of course when you get there, I would say try to who else is here? Is there anyone else who looks like me in this space? Is there anyone that looks like me in this space? And what might that mean? Because if you are the first or one of the few, that will have an extra toll, an extra layer of work added if you aren't mindful of it. People just put expectations on you that you might not even put on yourself.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
So that's something they pay attention to. I would also say pay attention to whether or not they are treating you like you're exceptional. And this is a tricky one because it feels good to be exceptional and remarkable, especially when you are trying to get a job. Yes, that makes sense, it's important you want to stand out. But I have found in situations where people have been like, "Oh, we're trying to diversify, and we need you. We need your voice, we need your perspective." I get it. And on the level, I appreciate it. But it also might mean that they're expecting me to perform especially as the diversity person in ways that I actually don't want to. Maybe I just want to show up and do my marketing or maybe I don't want to be tasked with leading all the diversity, equity, and inclusion things or responding in the middle of a racial crisis. Just be mindful of how that's shaping you, how that is sitting in your body when you are in those conversations.
Amena Brown:
Let me ask you about this as a second advice question. And I feel tender asking it because I remember having been in many situations like this. I want to get your advice on what women of color should do or how they know when it's time to leave a place. And I have worked quite a few places that I maybe should have left sooner. It took some girlfriends, it took some therapy to be like, "You know you can leave there." And I do want to say as a caveat, and you and I have talked about this, it's not everyone's position to have the privilege to leave. That there will be some people that will be working in an environment that is very toxic, that will be working in an environment where the diversity gap is wide, and nothing is being done about that, and they may not have the privilege to leave.
Amena Brown:
And so I want to speak to that first that there may be people watching us right now who are like, "I'm not going to have that privilege, I've got to stay." And maybe we'll address that in a little bit too, but I want to speak to it so we can honor that. For the people, and we're asking this particularly about women of color, for the women of color who would have the possibility to leave, how do you know when it's time? What are two or three things that you should maybe notice, could be in yourself, could be in the organization that would say you might want to consider that this is no longer the place for you?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
So many things come to mind. Honestly, I am the person who tends to stay too long. And so it's like the flags are glaring and red and bright because I've pushed past my actual limits typically. Some of those signs are often in my body, so it's not always rational. It's health things, it's anxiety, it's inability to sleep. Those just general health and wellness factors tend to go awry or that's what I've observed in my own experience. But before it gets to that point if your body hasn't told you yet, I think ... I'm a big fan of intuition in general. As a woman of color, you have an intuition about things. Sometimes it's work for some of us to learn to trust it or to even listen to that intuition. But you can sense things about people or situations that might be data for you if you think it might be time to go.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
If you've been in a position where have gone through all the channels you can to raise issues or problems, especially if they're diversity, equity, inclusion related and it's been months or years and no one's acted on those. It's Maya Angelou quote I believe when someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. That would've saved me lots of trouble. Watching how other women of color are experiencing that environment, are they staying, are they leaving? When they leave, is it an emotional dramatic uproar? Is it something that the organization quietly tucks under the rug to be curious about those stories? Because I think oftentimes if you're, especially if you're one of the few Black people who's there or woman of color who's there, there have probably been others. And so curiosity about that can help inform whether or not it's time to stay or time to go.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
But I'm a big believer that your body tells the truth and your body knows. It's like the quiet nudges that you feel after an interaction with a supervisor or big things, bigger health problems that show up in your life. I think your body will tell you honestly.
Amena Brown:
Oh, that's so good. And I didn't plan to ask you this, but I would love to have you speak to it. For the people who may be in that in between, that they're in a job at a company in an organization that they would love to leave but they can't, are there things you would say particularly to women of color? This can apply also to people who are just from other marginalized groups as well when you're in that in between of this is where I am, this is what I got to do to pay my bills right now to take care of myself. But how do you navigate that while you're in an environment that is not the healthiest for you?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
First thing is to pull back from the DEI work in that workplace if you're on that committee because you're one of the few and you're trying to change the world. I think divesting from the organization's DEI work is important for your mental health, especially if they're not trying to actually change anything for real, they just want it on their website to stamp it off. So that's one thing. I would also say or encourage you to evaluate what other boundaries you have with work. Are you overperforming? Are you working harder than the white folks on your team? And if so, how much harder? Is everyone losing sleep or is it just you? Is everyone staying late or is it just ... I think as people of color we can and we often have been trained to or taught to for survival oftentimes to overwork. And I think we have to do some healing work around that to reign that in to make it more manageable.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
Are you picking up someone else's slack? Just to be mindful of those dynamics. And some of this I'm saying it, but truth be told I've needed a community to work through some of these things. It's not just me and my journal sorting through the stuff in my mind, it's me with a spiritual director, with a coach, with a therapist, with Amena and friends helping me piece this together. But think about that, where can you pull back and still be doing your job? And then also you have to prioritize. I think in as much as you have the resources, you have to prioritize filling your life with other life giving things. And so what are you doing before you get to the office? How are you living after you leave the office? What can you be doing to cultivate a rich life outside of your job to help sustain you, to help heal you, to help inspire you as you bridge into what's next?
Amena Brown:
This leads well into the next question I wanted to ask you, which is how do you care for yourself as a Black woman leader? And I want it to be very specific what I mean because I know that the term self care for example has a lot of definition, everybody has a lot of definitions how they think about that. I think a lot of that definition falls into pampering for some folks. And one should pamper oneself as much as one wants to pamper oneself. But I think there is also a very holistic view of what it means to care for yourself. And could that be bath bombs? It could. Could it be saying no to opportunities that you don't think are a good fit for you? It could be that. Could it be drawing boundaries in unhealthy relationships? It could be that.
Amena Brown:
What are those things that are how you care for yourself as a Black woman leader, and in particular as a Black woman leader who has been in this space of talking about racial justice, of talking about diversity, equity, inclusion? I feel like all Black women need a layer of how we care for ourselves. There are additional layers when you do this work required for the diversity gap. Talk to us about that.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I love this question. For me, it looks like creating a life I love outside of this work. And that largely in involves a homestead that I'm cultivating with my husband. Before The Diversity Gap, I knew that I wanted to eventually retreat to some farm place in the middle of nowhere. And I don't think I always knew why I felt that pull. Part of it is because I grew up on a farm. But I think inside my body's wisdom knew that if I was going to show up to this really painful work related to race and justice, then I would need an anchor that was inherently nourishing to me. And so we recently purchased an acre of land, and we have been building a house, it's almost done.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
It's just this beautiful acre in middle Georgia, you won't be able to find me. And the internet barely works unless you have great service, which I do, but I can turn it off. For Bethaney, self-care looks like having a home base that does not care how many emails I send, doesn't how many downloads my podcast gets, it doesn't matter. The chickens need you to go collect their eggs. The farm, the home, it needs maintenance, and it doesn't care about the things that are happening online on the screen. And I needed that, I needed a completely different universe that I can live in and cultivate. And so that has been the biggest thing for me.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I would say secondly has been deepening into community with other Black women who are healing. I don't even know if I have words to describe just how unbelievably restorative that has been for every part of my life. It's just been everything when you can show up to this space, you don't have to explain a thing, don't have to perform, you don't have to be magical, don't have to be wonder woman, you can just be. And that has been everything for me.
Amena Brown:
I resonate with that because you're a part of that community with me. And for so long having been the lone Black woman in certain spaces, the lone woman in certain spaces sometimes I didn't have that community with other Black women. And the last five years of life building that has been so life giving even when I was still working in a lot of spaces where I was one of a small number of Black women there or the only Black women there, it was like I still felt like even though I look around and I don't see Black women here in my life, I felt like I had a squad of that support. And that is such a big part of that care. I'm so glad that you have been a part of that for me, that we got to do some of that together has been so wonderful.
Amena Brown:
Let's talk about what is next for Bethaney B. Wilkinson. And I want to qualify what I mean when I ask this because you and I have gone to a lot of conferences, a lot of professional conferences together. You get in the green room or in whatever the little networking thing is. And that was always the big question, well, what's next? What do you have going on? What's next, what's going on? What are you doing? What are you up to? And for so many years, I just felt so obligated to have some amazing thing to say that I was going to do. And so I want you to know that I'm not asking from that lens, this is not a productivity question. This is done, what's the next thing you're going to be doing Bethaney?
Amena Brown:
This is not a productivity question, it's more of a soul question. What is this season of life now versus what the season of life was that you may have been in when you were working on your book? I think that's the weird thing about writing books too is you're in a certain season of life when you pitch the idea, and then you're in a totally different season of life when you actually write it. And then you're in a totally different season of life when it actually is out there for other people to read. So tell us what is next for you, what are you dreaming up right now? What is bringing you joy?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
What's next? So I mentioned the homestead, that's going to be a lot of what's next as our house is finished. And I'm really open handed about what all that means. It's a new town for me, I want to know my people in a place. And I'm hoping that the pandemic ends one day and so I'll be able to go out and build relationships in my town, so that's a big thing for me. I'm really wanting to enter a season of rest. And I do rest, I'm not going to lie, I'm grateful that I've been able to design a life where I take a lot of breaks. Maybe too many some would say, truth be told.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
But I'm excited to have an extended season of focusing on just being in one space and cultivating nourishment and even sanctuary is a word I've been sitting with. What would it look like to have a safe and healing place for Bethaney as a Black woman? And then beyond that, I'm dreaming about what it would look like to create those sorts of spaces for other Black women in general where we can be with each other, commune with the land. I know I sound like a hippie because I kind of am, which might be surprising because I wrote this book on organizational culture and leadership, but this is just the truth of who I am.
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I'm really dreaming about space and place and land and community, and what does it mean to be a part of that? And how can I invite more people into that? For our healing as people, I think reading or writing this book and reading about race a lot in general, I'm like, "Okay, we've got the problem." My book or all the other books, we have a pretty good working understanding of the problem. And now I want to focus my energy on being a part of creating those environments where we can experience healing just for the sake of our own lives and stories not for the sake of transforming organizations.
Amena Brown:
Right, right. I love what's next, that sounds amazing. Do you have any final words that you want to share with the people, the community of folks that are watching or listening? What's in your mind right now when you think about closing this time of us getting to celebrate that you did this, you sat down, you wrote a book that's going to be very helpful for so many people? And it wasn't easy, and you wrote it during a time that had a lot of layers of being difficult. So we're celebrating that, we're celebrating you, we're encouraging people to dig into this work. What are your final words you'd say to the community?
Bethaney B. Wilkinson:
I would say that the journey is the work. And yes, there is a destination that I dream about, that place where the diversity gap is closed. But as I reflect on my own experience of writing this book and all of the lessons I've learned as a human in relationships, in leadership, in organizational life, it's all the work. And it's just the daily choice to say yes to it, the willingness to see our racial dynamics, the willingness to see other people, the willingness to ask the hard questions. And that's what the work is. And it's a lifelong journey, but it's also beautiful, and you learn a ton. So my encouragement would be to opt in, opt into the work. And it looks different for all of us, that's what's tricky about it. It's easy to stand outside and say this is what it should look like for you or for you, post this thing or go to this thing. But really deepening into our own stories and knowing that the journey is the work is what I want to encourage people to do.
Amena Brown:
Big, big thank you to Bethaney B. Wilkinson for being a part of the HER living room this week. And big thank you to you for being a part of the HER living room. Bethaney's book that The Diversity Gap: Where Good Intentions Meet True Cultural Change is out now. These are my out now fingers. You can't see them, but they're happening. You can get a copy wherever books are sold but be cool and get Bethaney's book from your favorite independent bookseller. For more info about Bethaney and her book, visit thediversitygap.com. HER With Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network and partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.