Amena Brown:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to HER with Amena Brown, and I'm Amena Brown. We're back in the HER living room. And I'm so excited because we are talking to another one of my internet friends. And this is actually very serendipitous y'all, because we just did a replay of an episode from the earlier version of this podcast before this podcast was on iHeart and Seneca Women. So you got to hear a couple of months ago, me talking to our guests today, we're talking to Potawatomi author and speaker, Kaitlin Curtice today. So, if you're following the podcast already, you heard Kaitlin and I talking when Kaitlin's book Native was released, which we were still in lockdown time. This was May 2020 when we were having this conversation. And Kaitlin and I are friends in real life, aside from just that I love to talk to her.
Amena Brown:
And so we were texting and I was like, we were texting about other things that ain't y'all's business. And then I was like, girl, anyways, while we talking about this, do you mind coming on my podcast? Because you're my internet friend. And I love the story of how we met. So Kaitlin, thank you for coming to the living room with us today.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yes. I love it because we've been in each other's real spaces, had tea in Atlanta, and now we can't, but we have Zoom. So I'm so glad that we have spaces.
Amena Brown:
That really touches my heart that you said that, that way, because I'm like we did meet on the internet and then had a period of time that we lived in the same place and were people who hung out in person, and then the pandemic, and then you moved. And so now we have the internet to keep us, the internet and our phones, honestly, we do have each other's real phone numbers too. So we have that as well, but that's how we get to connect. So I wanted to start off, Kaitlin, with how you and I met. We are Twitter friends is how we started out. Yes?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. Twitter, you messaged me. And I hated Twitter for years and you messaged me right as I was realizing I was going to be releasing my first book, Glory Happening. And Rachel Held Evans had retweeted me one day, and I had gotten 4,000 followers. And that clicked that I was like, oh no, I have to learn how to use this device, this app, what do I do? And I think that you were just one of the first writers women, people to just reach out and be like, hey, we could be friends, and we live in the same city. And it was just wonderful, because I was reeling, like how am I... Because I'm starting a career and I have to learn how to use social media, I have to, not just Facebook, but have to learn this. And it was a lot.
Amena Brown:
Totally a lot. It's really overwhelming in general to be on social media, but especially if you have to do it in any professional way. And those of us that have been in publishing and writing world that way, there's so much pressure on you sometimes about what you're supposed to be doing or not with your social media. A lot of us, when we were giving the proposal for our books, we had to actually put the number of followers that we had on various social media things. And then if you didn't have enough followers, I distinctly remember this with one of my book proposals. If I didn't have enough followers, then the publisher wanted to know who else was I connected to that had more followers than me, that could I count on those people to share this or that? Or was I writing for a platform that had a lot of followers. And could those followers be included? It's a very, very wild time, but yes y'all, I am nosy as it relates to social media. And I just saw a few of our mutual friends talking to Kaitlin on Twitter.
Amena Brown:
So I was like, who is Kaitlin? So I go on there and follow and scroll in. And then I saw that she also lived in the Atlanta area and I was like, clicked on that DM like, girl, you live in Atlanta, and I live in Atlanta. Do you want to just get together and have some tea or something? It didn't even occur to me that you might think that was strange.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Just to connect with another writer because social media is, it's just everybody. But then when you start to find the people that are in your vein and in the world that you live in, it becomes so special. And then we met for tea and it was wonderful. We sat there for four hours or something. It was great.
Amena Brown:
Big shout out to Tipple & Rose here in Atlanta, we went to this fabulous tea place and just, it was just so cute. If we had really been thinking, Kaitlin, we could have taken some beautiful pictures for Instagram of us meeting, but we didn't care about that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I have one.
Amena Brown:
Do you?
Kaitlin Curtice :
I do. I'll send it to you.
Amena Brown:
Okay. Thank you. Because I was like, did we take a picture? I just enjoyed talking to you and that's it. We just hung out. So yes. Kaitlin agreed to meet with me even though maybe it was strange that I hopped up in her DMs and she didn't know me like that, but we agreed to meet and over time I feel like for a lot of women of color, especially those of us who at that time were working in Christian space in some way, there was this underground network of us that was always in communication because we wanted to make sure that other women of color were resourced and knew what prices to charge, knew which events not to do, which events were going to be a problem, how to negotiate these things. So I think initially just Kaitlin and I really connecting on that, it makes you feel, at least for me, it made me feel less alone navigating all that.
Amena Brown:
And then a lot of us, our careers have really moved on even beyond that space where we met and we've been able to share life together and have these different touch points like Kaitlin and I hopped on the phone, no, we hopped on a FaceTime or something a few months ago. And we only had 20 minutes or something and it was like, girl, and then. And we had a whole, very real talk about life and then it was like, got to go. Bye.
Kaitlin Curtice :
That's all you need though. So I cannot tell you how important it has been to have other Indigenous women, to have Black women, to have women of color, just be in my life so that when something happens on social media or off in the real world, just to say to someone else, this thing happened and then they can be like, oh yeah, that was awful. And I'm holding that with you.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And then keep going, even just that moment. And a lot of those relationships for me have started online, most of them probably in the world that I live in now, my closest friends and allies within the writing world and the speaking world where those people that I reach out to and I need someone to see it, are people I've met online.
Amena Brown:
Okay. Give us a bit of your social media history, Kaitlin. What was the first platform that you remember engaging on in the beginning of your social media time?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Okay. I used MySpace.
Amena Brown:
Okay.
Kaitlin Curtice :
MySpace was actually the first platform where I messaged my husband to talk to him.
Amena Brown:
Oh, okay. My husband and I also have a little bit of that MySpace moment, we met in real life, but then I was like, "Keep in touch with me on MySpace."
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. So I had a MySpace, I wrote on Xanga. It was a blogging platform. I wrote my, I don't know, whatever I wrote. I don't even know, I would be scared to know now. So I had that, but MySpace, I think was my intro in. And then eventually I got Facebook in high school, but I stayed away from Twitter. I don't even know when Instagram was started, but eventually I got on that. But I think MySpace was my intro into the social media world.
Amena Brown:
Okay. So you get on MySpace, then you go from MySpace into Facebook. Was it your writing career that led you from Facebook over to Twitter? How did you make that kind of transition?
Kaitlin Curtice :
I don't even know why I started on Twitter. I think I just wanted to try it and I was like, nope, I don't understand. Everything is scary here. I'm going to go to Facebook, go back to Facebook. And Facebook was my personal, it was just family, friends, whatever. Basically I feel like Facebook was just, and often is now just daily journal entries for everyone. And there are issues that come up too, but it's not as... Well, maybe it is as an activist space the way Twitter is, it is in some ways, but a lot of people just use it, especially back then would just use it for daily journaling, here's what's happening in my life. And that's how I used it. Eventually I started a Facebook writer page, though it's my official one.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So I still have that, but Twitter is interesting because I was learning so much from people and realizing I had a voice all at the same time. And it was just this very empowering space. And then to have Nadia Bolz-Weber and Rachel Held Evans, and Sarah Bessey. So these women within Christianity see me and say, I think your voice is important too and to uplift my voice, just it empowered me and I didn't know I could have one really.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And so it just sparked something in me, I think, that had been waiting. And at that time I wanted to be a worship leader. That was my goal was to be a worship leader in the church. And thankfully I got to pivot away from that.
Amena Brown:
We love a pivot.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Not being mean. If you're a worship leader listening.
Amena Brown:
Please do that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I hold that with you.
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Do you.
Amena Brown:
Do that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I had to transition. And so finding other authors was incredible. I think, well, and that was the blogging days, which has transitioned too, there are so many women, especially writing blogs, writing mom blogs or faith blogs or whatever, and I think I caught the tail end of that in my writing career. I didn't know it was going to be a career. I was just writing because I needed to write, I started a blog called Stories, and it was just me writing about life and motherhood and being a Christian and whatever it was, my spirituality, and it just continued to morph.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So, social media is, for all the toxicity, it is a place for us to morph and evolve, and to become and learn. It is such a great learning tool. I've learned so much about ableism and fat shaming and queer activists and non-binary. I've learned so many things from people that I don't always have access to in real life. And that has meant so much to me to just be quiet and learn from them.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I was going to say that too when you said that, especially Twitter for me has this way where I get to be quiet and just read and listen, there are a lot of conversations there that are not for me to make comment, that are for me to listen and learn and check myself in some regards. And that is something, like you said, for better or for worse, that's something I really love about Twitter as a platform, even though it has its days where I'm like, things are on fire here, so nope. I got to leave. But the days where I'm like, I can just look through my feed, think about the different, like you were saying, activists, writers, leaders, artists, and just read some of those conversations and go, how does that sit with me? How am I listening to this disabled leader? How am I listening to them and checking my own able bodied privilege there? How am I listening to the conversations that queer folks are having, the trans folks are having and checking myself for how I participate in some of these systems that they are critiquing here.
Amena Brown:
So I really do love that about Twitter. It's part of what keeps me going on there. Okay. I want to ask you, what's your criteria for how you know if someone can be your internet friend, or how would you, maybe I should start with that, how would you define someone being an internet friend? Because sometimes to me I say that phrase and it means two things. It could mean that it's someone that I don't talk to in real life. I only talk to them on the internet, but I like them. I might even love them and we just connect and do that. But then sometimes it also means there's someone that I initially connected with them on the internet. And now I've pulled them into my real life. We're friends outside of that. So how would you define internet friend for yourself?
Kaitlin Curtice :
That is so interesting because, first of all, I've learned to be far less trusting of other humans, which has been a good thing.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Right. Right.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Because I grew up into like people pleasing, trust everybody. They're so great. And you can't do that, and on social media you cannot do that. And so I've learned to pay attention more and to be more careful with people, but I do look at, if I find myself interacting more or around the same spaces online with someone, I look at who do I know that's following them, who are my friends that are friends with them. Oh, that's interesting. Maybe I reach out to that friend and say, oh, you know this person? That's awesome. And then maybe that connects us or something. It could be something like that or something totally organic where a lot of times it's been like I'm hovering in these spaces with these other people.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And then eventually we just connect with each other often on a, because of a belief or an issue that we both are really passionate about, whatever it is, like anti-racism work or some sort of justice related work, or if we're both BIPOC, I don't know. There's usually a string you can pull where you realize, oh, this is draws us to each other. Yeah. And some of those friends are just like, we message each other every now and then. And then some of it has moved to it's like, do you DM? And then you move to your email inboxes, and then do you move from the inbox to the phone number? You can actually text each other. And maybe there's a Zoom call in between somewhere. I think that, that's been an interesting way to see it evolve.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And truly, I think so many of these relationships are just born out of solidarity. We just want to hold each other up. We just want to say to each other, I see what you do in the world. And I just want to be your friend, or just be your ally, or be a sounding board for your work even, even if it's not super personal, maybe it's just like, let's just talk about why writing is hard and why being a human who writes is hard. And that's it. Maybe it's just that relationship that comes from our books, or from the things that we speak on. And that could be it and that's enough.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
It's actually a certain gift to have that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Oh, I love that, because I feel like my relationship to social media, and I don't know Kaitlin, sometimes I want to say it got weird and other times I'm like, well maybe it's not weird I'm trying... A girl's in therapy. So a girl is trying to, I'm used to being like, that's weird that I do that. And I feel like my therapist is trying to get me to be like, maybe that's not weird. Maybe that's a way that you need that to be, maybe that's strength. A girl is trying to do the work over here.
Amena Brown:
So I'm not going to necessarily say that it's weird. But I feel like for those of us who were writer, speaker, artist, people pre-pandemic. And most of our work was event based. We were going to be going out, speaking at this and that. And for some of us, there were certain events that we might always see each other there, and that was this place to connect as well. But that was my time to be on. That was when my Instagram and my Twitter were the most active because I could take pictures of me and you, if you and I happen to be at some event together, I can post quotes from another speaker that I heard at that event. I can take pictures of my sound checking. There was just all this content. And then as soon as I would get home, I would shut it down.
Amena Brown:
And for me, my home time was for the people that I knew in my real life, because for me, I really needed them after being out there with strangers and people who may feel familiar with me because they're familiar with my work, but they don't really know me. They're not people that I can cry and snot with, or know what some of my real struggles are in my life, or what my insecurities might be, or what my inappropriate sense of humor might be. Those people out there, they don't know that part, but my real friends that I go to tea with, that come to my house, I go to their house. Those were relationships that I felt like I really needed, but I wasn't great at the multitasking, Kaitlin.
Amena Brown:
So then it was like I would come home and nothing's on Instagram and nothing's on Twitter because I'm going to lunch with my girlfriends, I'm going to my mom's house. I'm spending time with my family. And then I think once the pandemic came in, then I was having this strange crisis about social media, because then there wasn't really a way to, there wasn't as much of a distinct line of, oh, when I'm on the road I'm on, oh, when I'm home, I'm not, well, now we're all home and the road just really died down for me. So I spent most of this time like, oh no one knows what to do, but I loved watching the ways that you have used your social media to really build community with people. And I would love to hear what that journey was like for you and going from the person who was just getting on there as you're like, let me see how this works. And well, my book's coming out. Going from that to where your social media became this communal place, what was that journey like for you?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. It has evolved so much and I've had to learn so much about boundaries, and not just boundaries, but what kind of energy am I willing to put into the world? And what kind of energy am I willing to take into my body on a daily basis? Because I am someone who struggles with anxiety, and social media is totally a trigger for anxiety. And so there are things you have to be careful about, that I have to be careful about. I remember on Twitter, especially when I first started getting followers, I would sometimes tweet about, this space just like a big living room, we're all having coffee together. And now when I think of that image, I'm like, there's no way I would put my, what? 43,000 followers into a living room with myself, and have coffee with them.
Amena Brown:
Never.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Love you all, grateful that we all share this space. But how funny that, it was just my way of processing community like, okay, I have this group of people online who used to like me a little, at least. So we're going to hang out and share life. I was also answering everything. I was like, oh, I need to answer that tweet. I'm going to answer this tweet. I'm going to keep answering because I don't want to... And again, it's the people pleasing, or I don't want to offend anyone, I have to answer to keep my space going. And that's not true. I know that now, but you have to learn that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So I think as my career has grown, as I've stepped into those spaces, there are things that I don't do. I don't answer trolls, because I don't retweet people and point things out unless it's important, or it's pointing to something happening, I don't do it, because I know that all that energy is just going to hit me harder than the person I'm tweeting about. It's like protecting that for myself and my followers and anyone who might be triggered by that. It's just not worth it for me. And I've had to learn that, I've had to learn I can't answer everything. And I actually have to say no to things, as scary as that is.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And so that has evolved a lot. And I've also come to the point of knowing and reminding myself that social media is a resource, it is a tool and that's how I picture and use it now, instead of this is my personal space where I process my personal life, because that's how it used to be when I was more personal. It cannot be that because we have to have boundaries. So now it is a, how can I use this space as a really good resource, as a really good tool, as a space for solidarity, as a space for holding others up or opening doors for others? What can I do in my body, in my identity with whatever privileges I have, what should I do? What can I do? That's important to me. And I ask myself that all the time, and how can I just be listening and learning quietly and loudly? How do we do that?
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
But you're right, COVID changed everything. Now it's like, if we want to do an event, let's just host an Instagram live with three of our favorite friends and pay them. And there we go, we had an event. It's so different, but that's overwhelming, it makes it harder to set boundaries. So I've had to set boundaries, break them every day, reset them, delete apps off my phone, put the apps back on my phone, delete them again the next week. So it's like been a journey for many of us, I think, and to not feel bad.
Kaitlin Curtice :
There's always stuff going on in the world. We have to get off. We have to get off, step into real life for a bit, or reach out to those friends that have become real friends from that space. Take breaks and then reenter and figure... It's such a, like an ebb and flow. It has to have a rhythm to it. I don't know how someone could be all on or all off. There has to be this rhythm, which is so hard. It's so hard, but how do we not do it?
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Some people have stepped away and I love that they have, they did what they needed for themselves. I can't do that. I don't want to do that because of these relationships.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So how do we just manage it on a daily basis?
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Ugh. That makes such perfect sense. I want to talk a little bit more about the boundaries around social media that you have had to learn or develop. I also feel like it's always weird to explain what I do for a living to other people. That's another reason why it's nice to have other writer, speaker, author, artist friends, because it's weird to say I have something of a public platform. There are some places I go that people would know who I am. But on a general basis, it's not like I'm Beyonce in Target or something, and the whole store is, Amena, I go to Target all the time and no one's worried. No one's worried. No one is concerned about anything I'm doing there. No one has gasped at my presence in Target.
Amena Brown:
So I feel like that's like now you're a famous person, if you go to Target and people have gasped as you walked by with your cart. Okay. That's a famous person. So I'm like, that's not me.
Kaitlin Curtice :
You're masking.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. As people are like, oh my God, is it her? Is it her? If you're hearing that in Target, okay, you're famous person. I'm not at that point. But I have randomly been out with friends at a restaurant, even in, not even in Atlanta, out in some other city pre-pandemic and had people walk up and go, are you Amena Brown? I saw you at the blah, blah, blah. And this typically happens, unfortunately, right after I'm sitting with my friends or my family and going, no one is worried about it. I'm an artist, a few people know about it, but people don't just walk up. It's like, normally right after I say that, that somebody walks up like, oh my gosh, I was at conference, blah, blah, blah, and saw you at the thing, thing.
Amena Brown:
So I feel like my boundaries had to start at the event level and then trickle down into what that means for social media. I was making a lot of mistakes. I was just giving my contact information to everyone who asked for that? And then sometimes getting strange communications from people. Sometimes they were really genuinely, honest questions or help that people wanted, but it wasn't something that I had the space, time, capacity to reply to all those things. So I had to stop giving my contact information to everyone. That was a big, stop doing that because then you're inviting all these emails to come to you where people really want and need help about things, questions they have about writing, about becoming an author, about speaking, about poetry, about how they start their business.
Amena Brown:
And like you, I'm totally trying to unlearn my people pleasing ways there. So that was hard for me to be like, this person is genuinely writing me wanting help. I just, I want to do everything and just having to be like, ooh, girl, you can't do that. And then once social media came into it, like you having to then go, I think if I were to say a couple of maybe they're more internal boundaries for me, but first of all, to say every terrible racist thing that happens doesn't require me as a Black woman to comment on it.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
I think that sometimes it's still hard, because sometimes whatever happened, I'm just at my house trying to process that, and I'm overwhelmed to the point that I just don't have anything to say. Sometimes I'm just trying to be in my Black girl joy.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yes.
Amena Brown:
And I'm trying to honor myself by doing that. So I think that is one internal boundary that every conversation that's happening online, I don't have to participate in it, even if I have thoughts about it, I don't have to, it's not on me, I'm not constantly on top of some milk crate with my big microphone needing to speak on all the things. So what have been some of those boundaries that over time you've had to learn how to develop, or maybe are still learning how to develop?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. That's so great. And what the things you're saying are reminding me of things I've done that I have forgotten about, because thankfully they've become more every day for me. But I remember at first I felt so bad, I felt so torn, or I'm letting these people down, or I'm not being a good social media activist, or whatever we want to say to ourselves, there's so much pressure to constantly give an opinion, to constantly answer everything, and we cannot survive like that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
One thing I will say about opening the doors for others and having to choose when and how to do that. My first book, maybe I would've become an author through a different avenue, but I sent in my first book to a publisher because another author gave me the name of a publisher and said, just try, you should do it. And it was like a cold call. I just walked up to her at a conference after her session, I was like, I think maybe I could write a book. I think I have something maybe. Do you know what I should do with it? And she could have easily been like, no, sorry. I don't know, because you're a random person walking up to me at this conference, but she didn't, she opened herself up and I will always thank her for that, because I didn't know I could do it until someone told me I could, or to at least try. And that was an incredible gift that I don't think that woman will ever realize how much it meant to me.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And I want to do that too for others.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
But we can't do it for everyone. And so we have to, not that we have to pick and choose, but just there are seasons of life where I can't do five book endorsements as I'm trying to write my book, there are seasons of life where I have had to say, I know I can handle this work that is mine to do, and the extra things I have to say no to right now. And that's been hard. So two things that have stood out for me, one is I don't like doing podcasts except with people I trust. So I don't enjoy podcasts interviews. And I realized that when Native came out, because I was interviewed by a big Christian podcast, spent two hours talking to them and then they never released it.
Amena Brown:
Ugh.
Kaitlin Curtice :
That was my last straw of like, and then they asked me to rerecord it because it didn't sound right, or whatever the reason, it was like your time in labor, on your book release day, wasn't enough. So we need to rerecord the whole thing after waiting six months to tell me they weren't going to release it. And this was, as far as podcast go, I was hanging on this big one to get, to help me.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And that was my last draw, it's triggering, people's questions are triggering, people aren't actually reading the book and being sensitive to what they're asking me as an Indigenous woman. There's just a lot of anxiety for me personally that goes into showing up and being asked all these questions about who I am and what I write. And I have to just say, no, I'm done. So if it's Oprah or Brene Brown or one of my friends, I'll say yes, if it's someone I trust, I will do it. But if it's just someone I don't know, and I don't know what's going to come at me, I can't handle it, my body can't handle it. It's too much for me. And that was a hard thing because you need to do podcasts, you need to do them for your career. You're told, this is just what we do. This is how we produce books. That's been hard for me, but once I decided it, it just flipped a switch like this is what my body needs. This is what my heart needs.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I cannot be doing two podcasts a week. There's something in me that can't handle the anxiety very well. So that was something I learned about myself, fairly recently, in the last few years. And again, with COVID, we're relying more on those things. So are you going to do an Instagram live, or are you going to do a podcast, or are you going to do a Zoom event, or are you going to do a lengthened Q&A at this event? I had to be honest about things that trigger me as an Indigenous woman, that have made it more difficult for me to do this work well.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
It's like, for speaking events, I often get really bad headaches after I speak. So trusting my body to say, all right, it's time for me to go back to my room.
Amena Brown:
Yep.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So, no, I can't go out to dinner right now. Setting those boundaries is so hard because we are made to feel bad for trusting our bodies, or that we have to expend ourselves endlessly for other people online, or in real life. And you have to keep going, because that's expected of you. And when do we get to say no, my body actually needs something else, or my mind, my mental capacity can't handle social media right now. I have to take a break.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
When do we trust ourselves enough? And then one more thing. I had a real season of burnout after Native came out. So I was able to just go inward and take stock of these different things. And another thing I realized is that during November, which is Native American Heritage Month, I don't really do events anymore for that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I know, that's right.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Because like you were saying earlier, I'm processing Thanksgiving and all of this on my own, in my own part, in my own family.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And these people can all look up the various thousands of resources on what to do every year, they could literally do the same thing every year. I can't, even if I'm paid or whatever it is, I can't keep showing up and doing these events, or giving information, or helping them figure out what books to read, because the resources are there on the internet. And we already give resources all year long. So, that was a step for me where I was like, okay, I can't. So I might do one or two events, or I do them myself, I don't do things I'm asked to do, because it's too much.
Amena Brown:
Yep.
Kaitlin Curtice :
It is too much. And I have crashed and burned so hard since my career started every year. And I even write about it in Native, every year as November creeps up, it never fails to get DMs, to get all of these different requests. And I'm sure it's the same for any of those months that are... And I get it we're trying to celebrate you, or we're trying to just point out all this trauma, but for us, we're just trying to survive and hold it and be, and so that's another space for me online, offline, everywhere, where I just now just go inward and just ask what that means and share as I'm able to share, but not put pressure on myself to do all of these extra things because I'm supposed to.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
We're told what we're supposed to do all the time, and that if we say no we're being too much, or we must be angry, or whatever it is. And we lose money because of that. And we lose whatever. At some point we have to start trusting ourselves and having friends that hold us up with this stuff, and helping each other. And that's why you have Row House Publishing, which is a new publishing house that's featuring women and women of color and Black women, Indigenous women who are not held up and taken care of in traditional publishing houses.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So there are these groups rising up to hold us. And I'm so glad because we need that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Ugh. You just made so many good points and so many things that I just felt so viscerally like, first of all, because you're my friend I'm getting retroactively angry. I don't know if you do that when your friends tell you some terrible whatever that happened and retroactively I'm like, who said it? What? Retroactively I'm just personally getting angry.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I'll tell you later.
Amena Brown:
And then thinking about in my own experiences, how Black History Month events and then with the now more national celebration of Juneteenth also I have had some very wild event requests come in around that, and just being like, no, this is a time that I, first of all, personally want to be in my Black woman joy. That's the center of what I want to be in, what I want to be celebrating. You're asking me to come into this space that you have not taken the time to have an overall ethic of true diversity. You're not having an overall ethic of that, because if you were, then you would be having Indigenous speakers throughout the year. You would be having Black speakers throughout the year, but now you're just, oops, it's such and such month, we better get whichever, oh, it's Pride. We better find some LGBTQ+ people. Oh it's Asian Pacific Heritage Month. We better find... What are you doing? Have an ethic.
Amena Brown:
Don't wait for the month of whatever it is to come. Have an ethic where you're just valuing these voices, centering these voices overall. Then you don't have to go scrambling and doing these wild things and asking these stupid things of people who are already experiencing marginalization in whatever industry in which they work.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I get it again.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Get out of here. Don't do that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yep.
Amena Brown:
Don't do it if you're listening. And you work in the industry where it's your job, you got to pick people to come speak places and do... Have an overall ethic. If you're listening to this right now and you work in this type of business, look at 2021 and look at the number of disabled speakers you had, look at the number of BIPOC folks. Look at the number of LGBTQ+ folks throughout the year. And if the number ain't right, fix it all year.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yep. Yep.
Amena Brown:
Fix it all year.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Get a plan for next year.
Amena Brown:
Plan for next year.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Plan ahead.
Amena Brown:
Get out of here.
Kaitlin Curtice :
It's possible.
Amena Brown:
Please. I love that. I love what you were saying about the boundaries you've had to develop, because I have found that no is so hard, the first one's hard. Sometimes the nos are still hard now where because there's still a little part of me that's like, somebody's asking me to come share this on their podcast? Somebody's asking me to do this event? There's still a little part of me that's like, for $5. Sure. I'm just so happy somebody's asking. And it's still, I have to take myself through this grid of questions to say to myself, like who is leading this event? What are the vibes you feel in your body when you think about going there? What are the vibes you feel in your body when you think about sitting for the interview, if you are feeling this resistance, or this hesitation? Let's explore why. And it's okay to say no to those things, even if it's just no so you can go lay in a bed.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I know. I know. And that's such a difficult reality is that so many of us, we get a request for something and we have to sit there and choose, do I get paid and get traumatized? Or do I say no and not get paid, but I'm still traumatized that they asked me in the first place, but now I'm not going to get paid, but am I saving myself some of the trauma and heartache from this?
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
No one should ever have to weigh that in your career. But a lot of us do, and far into our careers, it's not like we do it for the first three years and then it's over. There is a, it's painful and-.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
... to have people who can hold that with us is just invaluable.
Amena Brown:
I will say that is one of the great things that I feel social media brought to my life, because for so long on the event side of it, I felt like I was, I knew I wasn't alone, I knew that there were other writers, speakers, authors, but very specifically getting a chance to meet other Black women who were also doing this, meeting Indigenous women, also doing this. And some of the conversations that we got to have behind the scenes that just emotionally even, just made me feel less alone, made me feel like somebody else out here experiences these things. And I just, I love that part about Twitter.
Amena Brown:
If there wasn't Twitter, I'm sure you and I had a lot of mutual friends. If there wasn't Twitter, there might would've been a time we would've been at somebody's party, or somebody's house for a cookout. And maybe we would've met that way. But the fact that the internet gave us that, oh, we are living a similar life here, trying to figure out what to do with our words. And do we want this to be a business or not? So to get to have that connection was such a wonderful thing. Are there other moments you can think of where you were like, oh man, the internet brought me a fun friend, or the internet brought me this wonderful moment? Do you have moments like that, that you can think of also?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Well, one moment that was funny, it was one of the first people I had met in person who followed me on Twitter. And we talked for a little bit, we were at some event together and at the end of it, he was like, I don't always know if people are going to be the same as they are online, if you're going to meet someone and they're going to be totally different, because maybe we're more harsh online than we are in person, or I don't know. And I was just like holding my breath, like what are you about to say to me? And he was like, you're exactly the same. I was like great. That works for me. I don't know if everyone feels that way when they meet me, but I was like, that's cool. I'm glad that it feels congruent a bit.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So right now, something that's so important to me, and I write about this in my upcoming book actually on resistance, is just the beauty of interfaith, inner spiritual work with other people who have different beliefs, or from different cultures, different backgrounds. And I have met so many new friends, indigenous friends, who practice things differently than I do. Jewish friends, friends from Palestine, sick friends, Buddhist and Hindu friends. All of these people who share such different backgrounds than I do. And we just come together for that underlying care and solidarity. And I have at least 10 of those people now that I've put in this full in my mind, I wish I could just get them all in person one day and we could just be in a room together. I would probably cry my little eyes out, because it is truly a beautiful thing to remember that there are humans behind and there're wounded humans behind all of these accounts. And that is all true.
Kaitlin Curtice :
We are all deeply, personally and collectively wounded and traumatized in so many ways. But also there's so much beauty of getting to meet in person. And my friend, Asha, who's an Indigenous healer. We met on Instagram and now she's one of my dearest friends and we Zoom and we talk, and she just released a new book. And so I'm celebrating her book with her and just checking in. And again, like you said, just to know I'm not alone in this. I have a handful of women I know I can text and say, this happened to me. That's all I need to say. And I know that you're one of them, Asha's one of them. And I have two or three others that I know I can say something and that I'm not being overly sensitive about it, or overthinking it. It just is what it is. I can say it, let it sit with someone else besides myself. And I didn't have that for the first few years of my career, I don't think, because I didn't realize I could have it maybe.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kaitlin Curtice :
And so there was a lot of loneliness. So to know now that is an option that's there and I can have that and hold it. The internet gave me that, I will never forget. I will never take that for granted, because it is such a gift.
Amena Brown:
Oh, I love that. I love that. It's good to think about the good things that the internet and social media have brought us, obviously we could name ad nauseam things that it brought us that we wish it had not, but there are some things about it that I'm like, oh man, I love that even though you and I don't live in the same city anymore, I can still see how you're doing, see how your family is, see what you're eating or something. And also I know I can text and stuff like that too, but it's nice to see what you might be talking about online, or the conversations you're beginning with your community. I love that so much. Oh Kaitlin, I could just talk to you forever. Oh my gosh. Y'all could you just talk to Kaitlin forever?
Amena Brown:
Kaitlin I want to ask you one more question and then I want to make sure we have a chance to share with the people where they can further connect with you and connect with your work. But since we are talking about the living room, I want to know when you go and visit good friends of yours, if you are called upon to bring a snack or a beverage into the living room space, what is your go to? Do you have a go to something that you make, or something that you buy, or does it depend? Discuss with us what you bring in this moment?
Kaitlin Curtice :
It does depend for sure, on what kinds of things we're going to be eating. I have been told that I make very good kale chips.
Amena Brown:
Okay.
Kaitlin Curtice :
But I don't eat them, my children do. So if the people I'm visiting like a good kale chip, I will make them a giant batch and they will very much enjoy them, but I will not be enjoying alongside.
Amena Brown:
Okay.
Kaitlin Curtice :
So, as far as I've been trying to eat more healthy in recent weeks. So now, if you ask me now, I would make a really great chick peas salad with some veggies in it, or maybe a wild rice dish from my culture, that would be a lot of fun. In the past, I don't know, I'd just probably bring chips and salsa, which is also a gift for all.
Amena Brown:
It's always the right thing.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I used to make, I would make a tea with simple syrup, that kind of stuff. And I would bring things like that. Something simple that most people can have is how I go about things. Hoping most people can have it, depending on what they're able to drink or eat.
Amena Brown:
That felt-.
Kaitlin Curtice :
I haven't thought about that in a long time, because I haven't been to anyone's house for a long time. So, it takes me a second. I'm like, what do I eat?
Amena Brown:
What will I bring? How will I do this now? I hope we get back to that, because I miss that. I miss the gathering where you got to just bring a little something and taste other people's whatever, little something they brought. I've definitely been, had my life changed by someone's salad that they brought to a little get together thing. And I was like, what's this, frisée, what is this? Tell me what this is, why it tastes so herbal, explain. It's delicious. I love that kind of moment.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yes. I miss that.
Amena Brown:
We're going to get back to it. I recently had Cole Arthur Riley on the podcast who had a time where she lived in Philly. And I know that you were there in the area too. And Philly's one of my food cities, Kaitlin. So what we're wanting to happen, Kaitlin, is we're wanting, I don't even want a gig to be there, I just want to come there for a friend and food trip. This is what we need, Kaitlin. This is what we need. So we're just going to put it out there in the atmosphere. I'm sprinkling my atmosphere fingers.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. They're throwing the Cheesesteaks gathering in.
Amena Brown:
Oh, okay. And the Hoagie Girl, those Philly Hoagies really... I was watching, I was watching a television show recently where this man was like, he was sitting in a pool with his shirt off and he just had like a pan of lasagna on his belly and he was just eating it. And I looked at my husband and I was like, this is the way, minus the pool, this is how I like to have a hoagie in Philly. I just want to bring it back to my room. I want to sit in on my belly and just mayo everywhere. That's the life I want to live, Kaitlin. Yes.
Kaitlin Curtice :
That is a gift.
Amena Brown:
We're going to do this. Kaitlin, tell the people, they want to connect more with your work. I have heard wind that you are doing some writing over on the Substack. So tell the people, how can they connect with you over there?
Kaitlin Curtice :
So, I'm on social media, just there are many days in a row where I don't feel like I have anything to say. So if you want to see me retweet other people's great things they have to say, you're welcome to show up on Twitter with me. But I say things on my Substack, which is called The Liminality Journal. And it's just the space to explore liminality, those in between areas of our life. So I do a lot of original poetry and essays there. It's just feels lighter than a lot of what I do right on normally. And so it's been an amazing space. And so you can subscribe to that, and I'm working on my third book, which will be out next spring. So please, keep an eye out. I'm very excited about that.
Amena Brown:
Oh my gosh, Kaitlin, yes. Can the people go to your website and then they can click around there and it can tell them all the things?
Kaitlin Curtice :
Yeah. Yeah. Kaitlincurtice.com will have, yeah, updates and whatever you might need.
Amena Brown:
Ooh, that's exciting.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Hire me.
Amena Brown:
Hire Kaitlin and pay her white man rates. That's what you need to do. Hire Kaitlin. Pay her white man rates until they're not white man rates, until they're just the rates we pay people who deserve to be paid well. So do that.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Pay me white rates.
Amena Brown:
Do that people. Okay. Kaitlin, oh my gosh. Thank you so much for joining us. Y'all, all of Kaitlin's links will be available in the show notes at amenabrown.com/herwithamena. You can see all that info there. Kaitlin, I just love you girl. Thank you for taking this time to chat with me. Thanks for being my internet and my in real life friend.
Kaitlin Curtice :
Love it. Thank you.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions. As a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRADIO. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.