Amena Owen:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the HER Living Room. And let me tell you, we have a guest in the Living Room, but it feels almost weird to call her a guest because she's part of the reason why this Living Room is put together. So I cannot wait to have a conversation with her. Today, we are talking to author of A Storied Life, White Sox fan who loves books and is one of my favorite cussin' friends, Leigh Kramer. Whoa. Leigh had to really watch me do that. You had to watch me do that just now.
Leigh Kramer:
I know this is a whole other side of you. I only get to hear the recorded version.
Amena Owen:
Leigh, first of all, thank you so much for being in the Living Room, as well as helping to put the Living Room together. So I was about to say, I couldn't figure out if I was like, "You all Leigh is our guest in the Living Room. Also, she lives here." Then I was like, "Wait, I guess that would make it sound like we live together," which we could, but we don't.
Leigh Kramer:
I mean, in the metaphorical Her Living Room, I do kind of live there. So I think that's accurate. Yeah.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. It's a home. We're there together. You and I, and Matt.
Leigh Kramer:
I guess you should explain that my official title is administrative and podcast production assistant.
Amena Owen:
Yes, because I was about to say that Leigh is not only my good friend, but we also work together and we work together in general ways that Leigh fixes my work life as my assistant and as the production assistant for this podcast, Leigh. Oh my goodness. Pretty much anything that's organized about this you all is because of Leigh. I just want you all to know that. I just want you to know that's true. So Leigh, I'm really excited for us to be on the podcast because you and I obviously talk through almost every episode. What am I saying? Every episode of this podcast, you and I talk about it, whether it's in the before process or in the after process. And we've been doing quite a few friend episodes in the last year or so, and particularly, the internet friends episodes that we've done the last few months and Leigh and I were laughing because we too started out as internet friends. And I would love to just go into that story a little bit, Leigh, of how you and I met. What is our internet friend story?
Leigh Kramer:
Well, I feel like it's a little nebulous because we were writing for the same website. And so we connected, there was some kind of ... Is it a Facebook group for all of the writers?
Amena Owen:
Yeah. That's right.
Leigh Kramer:
I feel like that's how I first came across you. And then I guess through the group, or maybe just from reading each other's stuff on that site and then maybe following each other on Twitter.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. I think that's it.
Leigh Kramer:
How we started getting to know each other better, but I don't don't remember our first interaction or at what point I was not my fellow writer Amena, but my internet friend Amena, it just, I don't know. Do you have any early memories? It's like, I don't know. Sometimes with the internet friend, it's like, you don't really know at what point you're like, "This person is cool." To like, "Oh, I want to be friends with them." It just kind of evolves that way. It's very magical.
Amena Owen:
Yes. It is magical because I do remember that Facebook group. And I do remember at one point somebody started a social media thread where it was like, "Hey, we should all follow each other." And I do remember following you then, and then being like, boom, okay. And looking at the tweets and somehow, either through conversations in that group or through your Twitter, I knew that you were in Nashville then. And I was coming there quite a bit, but when we met in person at an event, I don't know. It was like when I saw your face and did you DM me? Why did I not go back through our DM history to see if they were still there?
Leigh Kramer:
Well, this was several years ago. So that would be a lot of-
Amena Owen:
It'd a lot of DM.
Leigh Kramer:
As it just to go through. I may. Yeah, I may have DMd to say that I was going to be there. That is something that I would do, if I knew that someone was going to be in town and I felt reasonably friendly enough with them. I would probably say, "We should meet up or let's make sure we say hi, or do you have time to go get coffee or whatever." So that is possible. Yeah.
Amena Owen:
I feel like that might have been, I feel like there was at least a message from you that said, "Hey, I know you're going to be in town. And I live here." I feel like there's at least that. But I feel like I felt so pleasantly surprised when I actually saw you there at the event. I think we actually walked out of the event. It was you and I and another friend. I think we actually walked out of the event with just ... In the hallway, all the giggles and just, oh my gosh. All the conversation. Oh, that was so-
Leigh Kramer:
Yes, because we're real people. We could see how tall each other was or in my case not, but I am short. Amena is tall.
Amena Owen:
Very. That's true. That's true.
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. So I think it was just fun to actually put a name or an avatar and a face, a real face together. And to see that we are real people and also just enough conversation where you're like, "Yeah, I really do like this person." And they are in real life who they present themselves to be online.
Amena Owen:
Ooh, that's a good point right there, Leigh, that's a good point right there, because I think in making online connections, you sort of get this comfort online around some of the people that you enjoy their tweets, or maybe you talk to them online and stuff and the feeling when you meet them of, "Oh, that same feeling that I have about you online."
Leigh Kramer:
Yes.
Amena Owen:
I also have that feeling when I see you in person. Oh, you articulated that in such a great way because I'm like, that's totally how I felt like, "Oh, yes. Look at you. Yes. Yes." That same feeling. And I think we only had ... It was a very small amount of time because I can't remember if I had to go back on stage to do something. I can't remember that part, but I remember it was a very quick, my phone, your phone. Boo, boo, boo, boo, boop, boop, boop. Kind of.
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. I feel like we took a selfie and I think you introduced me to your mom and your grandma.
Amena Owen:
Oh, that's right. No, I think my mom and my sister, I think it was my mom.
Leigh Kramer:
And maybe your sister was there. I feel like you had a few people that were with you and then yeah, it must've just been a really quick break in between stuff. And I think we were all like, "Can we just skip the rest of those and just hang out?"
Amena Owen:
Okay. I really wished. Probably if I ... This is the thing about as you get older and more into your, I don't really care what people be thinking phase of your life. Now that we're in our forties, I feel like me and my forties, would've been like, "I'm done here anyways. Do you want to go get something to eat?" I feel like I would've done that now, but then I sort of felt like, "Oh, this session's starting," but now, I would've been like, "Oh, are you hungry? I'm hungry. I'm going to walk back in there and get my bag." And then everyone's going to know that I'm leaving and I don't want to be here for the rest of this.
Leigh Kramer:
I mean, I totally would've left because I had a free ticket. So I mean I was literally only there to see a couple of friends and it was not really my scene.
Amena Owen:
Please, please. And thank you. Okay. Let me ask you about this. And you spoke to this a little bit. I wanted to ask you, what is it you're looking for when you meet an online friend in person? Is it that feeling of comfort? I mean, I feel like if we were talking about a dating situation, you'd say, "You're looking for this chemistry." And maybe it is still chemistry, but just friendship. What is that like for you? What are you looking to see when you meet someone in real life that you know online?
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. Chemistry is probably still a good way to put it because I mean, I guess when you think of friends, maybe you don't think of chemistry so much, but do you vibe with each other, are you on the same wavelength, and does the conversation flow as easily in person as it does when you're just texting with them? I think with all of my internet friends, whether it's online or in real life, I'm looking for that connection. What are the things that we have in common? Are we learning from each other? Are we laughing? Are we supporting each other? And so when I meet them in real life, I just want to make sure that that ease is still there.
Amena Owen:
I love that word, the ease. We love a friendship with ease. I'm going to tell you-
Leigh Kramer:
And it doesn't always happen. There are a couple of times that I have met someone and the conversation is more stilted and I don't always know why that is. I think in most of those cases, they approached me to hang out instead of the other way around. Not always. That's probably not accurate, but I would say they were people that I wouldn't have necessarily thought to get together with, because there's certainly been internet friends that have asked me to hang out that I would've totally asked them first ...
Amena Owen:
Right. Right.
Leigh Kramer:
... if we had been in the same place. But yeah, I think where I felt less connected to the online friendship than I think it makes sense that I would feel less connected once we met face to face or they just had a different expectation of who I was or wanted because I used to be a social worker. I think sometimes people think that they want some free therapy and I do not offer that. I do not offer those services.
Amena Owen:
No, thank you.
Leigh Kramer:
So that can be a little awkward to redirect that conversation and be like, "I don't know where you thought that I was going to do that for you, but no."
Amena Owen:
Okay. No. No, thank you. No, we don't want to provide those services, especially since it's draining to do when that's happening to you, when someone has that expectation of you in a personal type of setting. No. No, thank you.
Leigh Kramer:
Right. And I mean, I feel like they probably think that we're friends, so I'm just going to share what I've been going through. And I'm like, "Well, we're not really that kind of friend."
Amena Owen:
Okay. Okay.
Leigh Kramer:
If we were real friends. Sure. I totally want to know what someone is going through or what they've been through, but I'm also not going to give them free therapy either. That's very different to support a friend versus looking for that level of expertise.
Amena Owen:
Right.
Leigh Kramer:
If you want that expertise, I don't not licensed for that anymore. You're going to have to do more than pay for my lunch, so.
Amena Owen:
Okay, Okay. Please. I'm going to tell you what I felt solidified for me. Leigh is my friend now. Leigh reached out to me and was like, "Hey, my birthday's coming up. I was thinking about making a trip to Atlanta. Can I stay with you all?" And I think back on this all the time, Leigh, because it was like you were asking me that, there were a few things that made me be like, "Yes," to all of the things that saying in this message. First of all, it was sort of like you caught me in this window of time where I want to say by the time your birthday had come up, I don't think we'd been in our house even a year.
I think you were one of the first house guests that we ever had and we'd never had a guest room either to have house guests. So the thought of being like, "We're in this new home. Sure." And then you said something about, maybe you'll remember this, but there was something you said about why you wanted to get out of Nashville. Or maybe you didn't say why. You wanted to get out of Nashville, you wanted to go someplace else for your birthday. And I think you were turning 35. Am I remembering that right?
Leigh Kramer:
Yes.
Amena Owen:
And I have a lot of strong feelings around what can be monumental birthdays in general. I have strong feelings around people celebrating that. And then I just have strong feelings around birthdays. I just feel like, you, writing and being like, I don't know if you had written and just said, "Shit. It's crazy in Nashville. And I just want a weekend in Atlanta." Would I have been equally, "Yeah, come on. Maybe I would have." But something about you, saying it was your birthday that you wanted to just be in a different environment. All the layers of that had me like, "Yes. Leigh, come to Atlanta. We can think of fun things that you can do because it's your birthday." And so you asked and I just said, "Yeah." And you just came on. Do you remember what was in your mind when you were reaching out to me to ask that?
Leigh Kramer:
No, I mean, not really. I definitely wanted to not be in Nashville for my birthday. I just wanted a change of pace. And I think the year before that birthday had been kind of disappointing. And so I think I just was like, "I've just got to get out of town for this one for 35." And then I was thinking, well, where, what's within driving distance that would be fun? Or who do I know? And then I was kind of like, "Well, I could go back to Atlanta and then maybe I could stay with Amena." I don't know. It is kind of wild when I think back because we'd really just seen each other that brief amount of time at that conference. And so that's a pretty big jump to go to, "Can I stay at your house?" I also think I probably gave you a lot of caveats of being like, "It's okay, if it doesn't work out." Or very low pressure.
Amena Owen:
I think you did too, yeah. I think you did too.
Leigh Kramer:
But I'm also someone that will just kind of be like, "Well, I'm just going to ask and see what they say." I will often go visit an internet friend that I've never spent any time with in person and just kind of be like, "Let's see what happens." Which hasn't burned me yet, so.
Amena Owen:
Okay. I was like, "Sure." And when you came and stayed with us that weekend, first of all, I mean, I have had a lot of joy getting to know you because you are a person that has ... How can I describe it, Leigh? It's like, you have a lot of wonderful layers to you and even all the years I've been friends with you, there is always something that we end up talking about that I'm like, "I didn't know Leigh liked that." Or I'm like, "I didn't know she'd be into that." Or whatever it is, you have these wonderful elements of surprise that I'm like, "Oh." So when you came that weekend and we were like, "What do you like to eat?" We're trying to think of some places we can go together. And what do you like to drink?
Matt was the one because between the three of us, Matt and Leigh handle their alcohol much better than I do. So Matt was like, "What do you like to drink? What about this? What about this?" He was naming different things. And Leigh was like, "It's gin for me." I was just like, "I am here for everything about this. I just would, I mean, I don't know what my mind would've expected you were going to say, Leigh, but there was just something so, I don't know. It felt something so classy, but cussing lady that you were like, "It's gin for me. Who cares about why. No one needs champagne. It's gin for me."
Leigh Kramer:
I feel like this is the best description of myself that I've ever heard.
Amena Owen:
It was so fantastic. I was like, "Oh, yes. It's gin for her. Go on, Leigh. What else?" I mean, we had a lot of fun that weekend. Just thinking of places that we enjoyed. And after you told us some types of food you like or things that you thought you might like to do and getting to go and do those things. And then because we're both introverts, also being like, "Is this a time that you would rather just sit down and not have anything to do?"
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah, I remember it was a quick visit, but it had a really good flow to it and we totally could have torn it up and done a lot more, but that's not what I was looking for. I just wanted to be in a different place. And just to be able to get to know you and Matt. Well, I mean, you better, but Matt at all, I hadn't met him before. And now, here we are. All these years later.
Amena Owen:
Oh my gosh, because I was thinking about the other times that you've come to visit us. And of course, since we've started working together, some of those were like we'd have a little bit of work and then we'd be like, "Okay, we're done with that. Now, a library, a bookstore, a donut." Or whatever it was we could get into. And so I kind of feel like every time you come to visit, it still has a little bit of the rhythm of what our first visit together was. It's definitely like, "What's this food that we trying to eat? Also, what's the time we going to have that, we going to do nothing in case activities have over stimulated me?"
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. Or just sitting on your couch and talking. It's like, we don't have to go out to have a good time. But yeah, I don't know. Oh, man. Now I'm really sad that we haven't been able to see each other in person.
Amena Owen:
I know, Leigh. I know. Because normally, at least once a year, I think so far. We've almost every year up until the pandemic of course had that time. And so there have been several moments you all, personal moments between Leigh and I and professionally where I've been like, "Leigh," Like a professional thing. We had some winds happen professionally that I wanted to be like, "Oh, we're supposed to be able to eat food together right now. And I hate it that we get." And then sometimes personally, I'd be like, "Oh, I just want to make you collard greens, Leigh, and I don't even know if you eat collard greens, but I want to make them and sit there with you."
Leigh Kramer:
Which will always crack me up. That is your go-to: collard greens.
Amena Owen:
It's my big fix it. It's my, "Well, something's going on. I guess I need to make 10 pans of collard greens." I don't know. that just feels like a thing that I guess, because it's a dish you make that you kind of have to stew and it cooks for a while.
Leigh Kramer:
A lot of love and comfort into it as well.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. I think maybe that's why it's in my mind, but you all will not believe the amount of times. And I'm like, "Leigh, I just wish I could make you some collard greens." And Leigh will be like, "I don't know if that's what I want, but I hear the sentiment behind what you're saying." And I do receive that. Okay. So Leigh, after us being online friends, then we became friends in real life. Then we started working together and this is a thing that we really wanted to center this episode on because I know some of you may also be in situations where you work with friends or I've also had people say, "Oh, my friend and I are thinking about starting this business together, or we are in consideration of working together."
And I have to say, I am so proud of both of us that we have managed to work together as much as we have to work together, especially on the podcast and the different projects we have going that we've worked together and our working relationship is great and our friendship is great and that is not always the case when friends work together. So I wanted also to talk about how we started working together and basically, I was in a crisis and I don't even know if Leigh and I on the friendship end of things had, had a chance to talk about the fact that I was in a crisis. I don't even know if we had a chance to talk about that.
Leigh had sent out a message to a few of us on email, right? And you were like, "Hey, here's a thing I'm doing. Offering administrative assistance. Let me know if you all have any leads for me or if you have any work." And I was immediately like, "Hello, Leigh, hard return, hard return. So excited you sent me this email because a girl is in crisis and need some assistance." So tell me on your side of that story, where were you at that point? And how was that email when you were sending it? You were sending that to a few people who were your friends also, right? So you were opening up the opportunity that you might have work opportunities to come in from friends. And how did you process all of that?
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. So this was fall of 2017 and 2017 was a very difficult year for me.
Amena Owen:
Same.
Leigh Kramer:
I don't like to think about it very much. That's the level of difficulty that we're talking about. So I was in a state of flux with work and I had been looking for full-time work. It hadn't happened. I was living in the Twin Cities at the time. That move just was not working out on any level. So I had gone back to becoming a virtual assistant and had small clients, maybe five hours a month or whatever here and there. And just trying to cobble things together. Just trying to pay the bills even at a minimum and things just were not coming together and I didn't know what else to do. So I was like, "I guess I'm just going to really lean into the virtual assistant thing and see if I can just build up more clients and make that work."
And so all of my work up to that point had been word of mouth. So I was like, "I'm just going to send out an email to people and let them know that I'm really going to go all in on this and just see what happens." And so I was just kind of going through my contact list and I was like, "Well, I could send it to Amena," but I was kind of like, "I don't know." It was just, I just added you in there. I don't think you were on the initial list of people that I was thinking I was going to send it to, but as I was going through, I was like, "Yeah, just going to slot her in there." And then I feel very quickly, you wrote back.
Amena Owen:
I do. I did.
Leigh Kramer:
And I don't remember if ... I'm sure we had talked on Voxer, but thinking back, I can't remember if I knew what was going on with you at that time.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. I feel like it had been a while since we'd been able to catch up, so. Yeah.
Leigh Kramer:
Which could also just be speaking to my mental health at the time. I mean, you all, I was in a very dark place that year. So I think we found each other at a time work-wise when we needed each other, but also just to be able to connect on that personal level again too. And I think it took our friendship even deeper. I mean, in fact I know that was part of it, that we were just going through hard times and we were able to support each other, even though we were both going through hard times.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yes. When you said that, I was like, "Damn, 2017 was a rough year for me too. What was it about that year that just ... Yikes."
Leigh Kramer:
I know.
Amena Owen:
I just remember emailing you back and being, I was in such a crisis that I was like, "Leigh, even if you can't keep me as a long term client, just for two weeks, can you check my email? Can you just make sure there's nothing in here?" I was in that much of a crisis. Oh my gosh. To think back on that. But like you said, let us not marinate too hard on that because eek, eek, please. But it was the perfect, it was unfortunate circumstances that had led us both to now, this moment of working together. But then that was very fortunate that we were able to connect at that moment because, you all, when I tell you all, Leigh came in there and just even knowing someone was checking my inbox so I could just take a break was amazing.
And then I think 2018 came in and I was like, "Okay, things have been in shambles. Now, I need to feel, like figure out what is rebuilding going to look like?" And then I was able to come back to you and go, "Okay, here's what I think things are going to be, is this the thing we can do?" And I'm going to tell you all something that I love about Leigh Kramer. I love this about Leigh Kramer until the cows come home. You know what I'm saying? And I really have never been in any situation where I understand what it means when the cows come home. But I assume by Southern context, that's forever. So anyways, so the end of time, is when the cows come home, when I tell you all Leigh Kramer be having a boundary girl. And when I tell you that Leigh Kramer be communicating the boundaries to you, honey.
So even when we first started working together, Leigh, let me know. These are the days and hours I'll be available. This is how my invoicing process is going to work during the days and hours that I have told you, I'm not available. I'm not available. So you will need to be waiting until the next day that I tell you that I'm available. She really set that up. And I think I'm really thankful for that because to me, I feel like that is a big part of why we are able to maintain a personal relationship and work well together professionally, because you walked in with, "This is what we're doing. That means even if you're thinking about a work thing on Saturday, don't text me about it. And even if you text me about it, you won't get a response, because I told you, those days belong to me." It was like, I walked in sort of understanding your expectations. Do you feel like in times when you're working with friends that having those conversations upfront is really helpful?
Leigh Kramer:
Oh, absolutely. So part of it is that is the conversation that I have with clients regardless of how they came to me of just being very upfront of these are my work hours. You can message me outside of that, but I will not respond to that. I will not look at it. I don't keep any work email on my phone. I'm very regimented about that. And part of that is because a lot of people in the freelance space don't keep regular hours, but it's very important for me personally, in order to be able to do the work that I do to have set hours and a set availability so that it doesn't bleed into every other area. And because I think that most of the time, a lot of what I'm doing, isn't urgent. So it can wait until the next business day.
So it's my own personal boundaries, but I also think, or at least I hope that some of those personal boundaries can also help my clients set better boundaries around that work life balance, which can seem a little mythical, but I don't think that it has to be mythical. And then I think with the friend side of it is I want to be very clear that we are friends and we are working together and here's how we can best communicate about the work side of things. And here's how we can make sure that we keep the friends side of things going. So it doesn't become lopsided. And just to make sure that we are communicating well across the board because I don't want working together to sour the friendship or vice versa. So I would rather just address it straight up and then you can kind of fine tune as things go. But I think it's just name the elephant in the room, here's what we're working with. And here's what I think would be best.
Amena Owen:
I love to see it Leigh, because I do feel like sometimes you have conversations with people and they'll say, "If I have a problem with that, I'll let you know." I'm going to tell you all something, Leigh is really going to let you know, some people say they have a problem, they'll let you know. But really when they have a problem, they're going to be sort of internally, "I have a problem." No. If Leigh is like, "No, that's not going to work for me." Leigh's actually going to come back and tell you, "That's actually not going to work for me." That's really helpful. That's really, really helpful. And of course, as your friend, as your friend and in working with you, it's like as your friend, I want you to have your time. I want all of what those boundaries are going to do for you in how that impacts your life in a healthy way.
It's like, I want that. So I don't want to be the client or the friend who is overstepping that. I don't want to do that part. I was going to ask you, what tips would you have for people who are considering being in a work situation or work relationship with a friend? Because I think sometimes we assume, "Oh, it's my friend. We don't really maybe have to have those conversations with each other. We've known each other, blah, blah, blah amount of years. We've experienced blah, blah, blah, seasons of life together. So we'll just work together and it'll be like, we're just catching up. And then a few work things in between." And then things get really a mess because we didn't have those conversations, so.
Leigh Kramer:
I think that's when things go sideways is if you assume that it'll all be smooth sailing because even in the closest friendship work changes things,. It can be great, but you have to go in with your eyes wide open. I would say the first thing to consider is your personality types. And to really think about the ways that your personality types get along and then the points of conflict. And especially if you've been friends for a while, there probably has been some kind of conflict or some area where you don't see eye to eye. And so to think about how will you navigate that conflict and what is your own conflict style? What is theirs and what can you both do to make sure that doesn't impede the work that you're going to do together?
Because yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm always the first person to handle conflict head on. I mean, definitely have my boundaries. And I learned to be very upfront about that, but sometimes in a friendship, I might be more prone to let things go, but you can't do that when you're working together because that's how the resentments start to pile up and then little things can become huge issues and you just don't want to ruin a friendship over a work conflict that really isn't that big of a deal at the end of the day, even though it feels like the largest mountain in the world.
Amena Owen:
Right. Right. Oh, I think those are such good tips, Leigh, because I feel like I've had a few instances where I was working with a friend and it just got to that point where it was like, we're about to choose this work over this friendship. And at the end of the day, I'm going to choose the friendship. The work can be figured out a different way. I would rather walk out of not working together and still have our friendship than lose our friendship to working together. But in a lot of those cases, I mean, of course sometimes it just doesn't work well because of maybe the season of life for you and your friend.
And maybe you started out and things seemed like they were going to be this certain way. And life comes at you in this different way, you have some different things happen to you that sort of change those dynamics. But I think outside of that, a lot of it is sometimes two friends that shouldn't be working together is working together and then seemed like a good idea, but we didn't really think through the details. And it's like, "Maybe you should just be that person's friend. Maybe you all not supposed to be."
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah. Well, and I think it also depends on what are the roles that people are going to play. Is one person the boss and the other person is freelance employee? Are you co-owners? Who's going to be the decision maker? Are you both ideas people, in which case, how is the actual work going to be implemented? So there's a lot of considerations. And just because you get along when you're hanging out, doesn't mean that you're going to be able to work together well. So I feel like there's a lot to consider, but the fact that you really like someone and know them well, or at least reasonably well can also be a really great way to start the business relationship, so. I don't know. It's worked out for me.
Amena Owen:
And me. I mean, I have enjoyed this so far. I do feel like the first, probably two or three years that you and I worked together, which I am a proponent of the check-in, I'm sure that I gave Leigh a much longer preamble at the check-in than she asked me to give her. But I am a proponent of if you're working with people in general, but especially if you have personal relationship to them of just having a certain time of the year that you just have that check in, is this working for you? Is it working for me kind of thing? And you and I, we do that every year. I'm giving less of a preamble than I did those first couple of years because the first couple of years, you all, we would get to that. It was either end of year meeting or sort of top of the new year meeting.
And I'd be like, "Well, Leigh, here we are. And I know that you may not want to be here working with me like this always, you may decide one day it's Scotland for you. And I can see that as a beautiful life for you. And I want you to know at such time." And Leigh would listen to me, go through the whole thing. I mean, this was taking a while, you all, I'm like, "At such time that you may decide, you may not even want to do this anymore. No, I always really." I was really going in for it and Leigh would listen and she'd be like, "Amena, nothing has changed regarding our work relationship. Also, as I have stated to you previously, should that come up, you would know that long before this meeting."
Leigh Kramer:
Right. But I do. It's really helpful to have a big picture meeting like that where we can just talk about what's worked well over the past year, where do we need to improve some systems for next year? Or what are the goals for the next year and what do we need to put in place? So it's not even just, how is our interpersonal working relationship going, but what are we going to put our mind to next?
Amena Owen:
Yeah. Which helps us fix some of the stuff that can make the relationship staticky or things that Leigh and I all the time are trying to refine processes, how we work together of what we're doing. And Leigh and I working together. It's not like what I do for a living is cookie cutter. So there'll be a lot of moments that Leigh is like, "Oh, didn't know we'd be working on something like that. And here we are doing that." So that can be kind of fun, but also new things to learn all the time of different processes that would be needed for different projects that come across the table. So I do feel like the communication is a huge plus for us. And I agree with you. I think if you are going to work with a friend, you have to really ... I think to me, working with a friend is the same as living with one. And I have a lot of friends that I love and some of them you're just like, "We love each other and we could just never live together." It would just-
Leigh Kramer:
Won't love each other more, if we don't do this.
Amena Owen:
Right. And I feel like you should have those friend considerations.
Leigh Kramer:
Yes.
Amena Owen:
You have some people you love that you're like, "We can't live together. We going to get each other's nerves and ruin our friendship. We can't work together." And then you have some friends that you're like, "Let's have a talk. Let's talk about what that would look like. More conversation, more communication is the best." I think that's right.
Leigh Kramer:
Yes. Yeah.
Amena Owen:
Leigh. Oh my gosh. I could just talk to you forever. I have enjoyed this so much, you all, I hope that Leigh and I have given you some things to think about, consider if you are thinking about working with a friend and also, I just want to return to the top of the episode that sometimes it's good to just take a little step out there. Take a little step out there with a DM. If you have a chance to meet an online friend in person, you can take a little step out there and check the vibes. And if the vibes are good, you could totally come out of that with a wonderful friend, because I know I did. Now, Leigh can't get rid of me. So this is it.
Leigh Kramer:
I always say that you can't get rid of me. I conned you to be my friend.
Amena Owen:
We love to see it. Leigh, thanks for not only being here in the Living Room, but I do just want to give you these flowers because Leigh and I have been working together. Some of you are just now listening to this podcast after this podcast was sort of rebranded into a weekly, you're hearing this now more of you because of Seneca Women and iHeart, but Leigh and I have been working together since the 1.0 of this podcast when we were just building the scaffolding for what this is now. So I just wanted to say in our Living Room while the listeners are here, Leigh, just thank you so much that I appreciate you. This podcast, you all, I'm not even lying to you all, it wouldn't be HER with Amena Brown if Leigh and I had not been working together at that time, Leigh really helped put together all the infrastructure that you see here.
So I thank you for that, Leigh, and also, Leigh, if we can close with one of the affirmations that you have given to me many times as a friend, you all, I go to Leigh and I tell Leigh some wild things that have gone on. I tell her how this person, that person crossed this boundary after I put the boundary up? I'd tell her the wild things. You all wouldn't Even know the wild things people say to me, professionally and personally, and Leigh always has a two word affirmation for me. And I would love, Leigh, if you can just share this affirmation with the people so that if they too, need to remember these two words, they can hear them from you. What's the affirmation you normally tell me?
Leigh Kramer:
Do you really want me to say this?
Amena Owen:
Do you want? Well.
Leigh Kramer:
Make sure your children aren't listening.
Amena Owen:
Yeah. These are adult words. So if there are children in the room, get them out of here. But if you listen to this podcast, hopefully, you won't listen to it with your children, plus. Yes, Leigh.
Leigh Kramer:
Okay. I always say, "Fuck them."
Amena Owen:
You all, if I could do embroidery, that's what I would do. I would just have a very beautiful embroidery of fuck them dash dash Leigh Kramer. That's what we need. It's a wonderful affirmation, Leigh. I love to see it.
Leigh Kramer:
You remember you told me, I don't know, a couple years ago that if I ever started in a nonprofit, it should be called, fuckthem.org.
Amena Owen:
Because this would be a very valuable nonprofit, Leigh, because people, I feel like as a friend, one of the things that I just value so much about you is that you are always about reminding the people in your life that you love, reminding them like, "Hey, you're worth more than those people treating you like that. And you don't have to accept that treatment from them. You don't have to accept it." So that's really inherent in this new nonprofit that Leigh is going to launch. We'll let you know when the links are available, that you might be able to. Wouldn't you all have so much joy donating to a nonprofit that was fuckthem.org? Wow. Wow. I think there could be a lot of joy in that, Leigh, we'll discuss. We'll discuss.
Leigh Kramer:
Yeah.
Amena Owen:
Thank you so much. Talk to you all next week.
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast.