Amena Brown:
Everybody. I am so excited to be back in our, HER living room and my producer, who is also my husband had to catch me before I just start getting all the gems from our guest and they're not recorded. So because we don't want that, we went ahead and hit record now so that you could catch some of these random things that I didn't plan to talk about, but let me tell you who our guest is first. You may know her from her viral hit, Quiet, which rose to prominence during the 2018 Women's March in Washington, DC. She uses her music to affect social change. Let's welcome to the HER living room, musician, singer songwriter MILCK. MILCK, do you hear the crowd?
MILCK:
Thank you for having me.
Amena Brown:
I'm so happy. You're awesome.
MILCK:
It's like good vibes. I remember when I first met you, I was like, vibes. For days.
Amena Brown:
There were so many vibes when we first met seriously. What we were talking about before we started realizing that we needed to go ahead and record otherwise, MILCK and I will just have all of the amazing conversation and it won't be heard by any of you, but we'll have a great time, but you won't hear it, is we were talking about what happens when artists have stage names. And I was asking MILCK, "Do you want me to talk to you by your government name or do you want me to talk to you by your stage name?" And I was just saying, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts about the MILCK, being a poet on the poetry side, so many people, especially that started doing this in the '90s, early 2000s had stage names. So it was like, if you were somewhere and you were to call that person like Tasha, even though that was not Tasha's stage name, it would feel strange if you're in this professional space, because that was a personal thing.
Amena Brown:
That's like, okay, her mom calls her Tasha and her friends from high school, they call her Tasha, but you, that just saw her at the show, you don't get to call her Tasha. So is MILCK like that for you? Do you feel like for... And you all notice that I'm not saying her government name because she didn't say you all have permission to use it, and I don't want nobody in her DMs trying to call her by her government name when that's not for you. Okay?
MILCK:
Better work for it. I wish you all could see the video, but Amena, when she gets serious, she looks away from the camera and whispers more closely to the microphone. That was cool.
Amena Brown:
Because I'm talking to you all listening. Okay? So what are your feelings about that MILCK? Do you have vibes or differences in your life of like, hey, when I'm in a professional setting, it's MILCK, but to my mama or to my friends, this is what it is?
MILCK:
I think that's what I'm headed towards. When I created name MILCK, it was me flipping my last name, Lim backwards and putting my first two initials, Connie Kimberly. So it is my name, but just scrambled up. Symbolically, it was about taking what my parents gave me and my traditions, but making it into a third culture of sorts, so it could work for me. My parents are Chinese immigrants and I felt I needed to make something new. And MILCK is also what feminine energy provides to nourish the next generation. I was like, yes. I think when people call me MILCK, at first when I started doing it, I was like, "Oh well, my name is also Connie, you can use that too."
MILCK:
But now I've noticed in my body, I feel electrified or energized when people refer to me as MILCK in performance and sharing settings, it just feels like I'm paying homage to the concept of what MILCK is in this world. It's nourishing awesome substance that helps to fortify the next generation. So it helps keep me on track too. So I don't think I did it to create a barrier between personal and professional relationships, but it helps me be imaginative and in this creative space.
Amena Brown:
Oh, I love that. I love that. You know what, I'm going to be vulnerable and I'm going to share with you that I used to have a stage name. My poetry stage name was Lady Brown. Miss Lady Brown. Now I don't know if you're going to regret telling me this, but I don't know if I can go back, Lady Brown. I'm not sure why. Why was I like ... When you were explaining the meaning behind MILCK, I was like, yo, yeah. And I'm like, what? Was this time? It was probably '99, 2000 or something. I'm like, was it because I'm a classy lady that I was like Lady Brown, and then I got around some other artists and I was like, there's actually not that many Amenas, but there's a lot of lady this or that, but there's not a lot of Amenas. And I was like, you should just be Amena. So that's why it didn't last long. It never made it to an album or social media. So I basically had the opportunity to erase that and act like that never happened.
MILCK:
And take a pivot. Maybe Lady Brown was born so that Amena could be reborn. Maybe you had to come back to it. Did I just drop a gem?
Amena Brown:
A gem has been dropped in our living room you all. So early in the conversation MILCK, so early. We're not even in the interview questions and we love to be reborn. We love to be reborn. Okay. Speaking of our HER Living Room, so in the before times when I would get together with my girlfriends, at first it was like, "Let's go out, let's have drinks. Let's go out and have coffee. Let's go to the restaurant," and then after a while it would just be like, "Let's just go to one another's houses because there are things that need to be discussed that maybe the bar or the restaurant is not the right place for us to do that, or the length of time that we're going to be talking, the coffee shop, it's not going to be it."
Amena Brown:
So then we just started gathering at home, in particular, my friend Helen and I, would bring together these remnants of snacks that we already had at home, but we're not buying new things to bring to one another. It's like, "Oh, girl! I got half a bell pepper. I got three fourths of a chocolate bar," and I'm like, "I got maybe two-thirds of a Hummus container, and let's put our things together and do that." So, that's what the HER living room is like. We're bringing people here, people are listening, they have their snacks. If you could bring snacks into the HER living room, what are some of your favorite snacks that you love to eat when you're just hanging out at the house with your people?
MILCK:
Whoa, I got to say, this is my favorite interview ever, because we got to start with snack questions.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
MILCK:
Wow. So lately, this is a lot to share with your community, hello community, I have acid reflux. So one of the snacks that is okay for me are Baked Lays. The crunch and the fineness, and I don't really know if this was a full potato before, but they mashed it up and put it all back together again, and I like that danger in my life.
Amena Brown:
What's the flavor of a Baked Lay? What's happening there? Do you have a favorite or is it like, whatever Baked Lay, I meet, I love it.
MILCK:
Thank you for asking. I feel very seen. I'm glad we're talking about this because it's usually cheddar and sour cream or barbecue. However, with this acid reflux, it's just the OG now. So I keep it really, really basic, and it's just deep joy. And just to let you know, sometimes you just go, you're like, you know what? This is all I can have and I'm going to love it. That's kind of the theme of 2020 and 2021. This is all I have, and I'm going to love it. #Baked Lay's original flavor.
Amena Brown:
And Baked Lays executives, I know that you're listening, and I know that you want to sponsor MILCK. I know that you want to help continue to fund the amazing art that MILCK is creating. So I know you're listening and you can reach out to her on her social media and talk to her about that.
MILCK:
Yeah, slip into my DMs.
Amena Brown:
This is a good snack choice. You know how sometimes you're talking to someone, they say a snack and you're trying to respect them, but you don't really respect the snack and you feel a little like, "Oh, I don't know." But this snack you've said, I'm like, "Yes, I vouch for that snack."
MILCK:
Oh my gosh. Okay. So I could bring it. Well, if I opened the bag, I'd have to see you very quickly, soon after I open the bag, if not, there's none left, but if I see you five minutes after I open the bag, you will have the last quarter. I'll bring that for you. That's friendship.
Amena Brown:
That is love right there. It is. It that touches me. And for some reason, my experience with Baked Lays is definitely connected to a Subway sandwich, and I'm not sure if that was my first exposure to a Baked Lay, but I feel like that was it with me, that I went in there to get a six inch something, and the chips. This was before I understood what a Kettle chip was. That was just wild to me that I was like, "I'm not sure what that is. We don't know that," and then we have a regular chip, but is that what we want? And then I was like, "Aha, like a Baked Lays." I think that was my first time. So for some reason it feels weird to me to eat them without some sort of sandwich. I don't know that's ...
MILCK:
That's good training, and actually, I don't know if you went through a phase in your life where you ate a lot of subway, because it was so affordable, but I remember the first few years of being a musician, I would buy a foot long and with a Baked Lays and just split it up. It was a $5 foot long, and I just split it between meals.
Amena Brown:
Musician budget. That is definitely some broke artists things, because I remember early, especially those first few years of the road when no one is catering for you, no one has all the meals. It's like, you get a little per diem or something, even before I knew what a per diem was. I think I had to go on my first real tour when they were like, here's your per diem? And I was like, what is this?
MILCK:
Thing I'm not going to question.
Amena Brown:
What do you mean?
MILCK:
I'll google later.
Amena Brown:
Right. And I am like, you put money in my head, I'm going to take it, but do I get this again? I don't know Latin very well. There is a lot of confusions, but it wasn't a lot of per diem either. It was 20 bucks. My first tour, it was 20 bucks a day. Where are you going to go? You have some limits as to what you're going to do, and you could go in there and get that $5 foot-long this method you described is very accurate with me, and you just split it up. You had one for lunch, you had the other half for dinner, depending on my mood. If I went ahead and just got involved in those Baked Lays, and there's no more of them by dinner or maybe I was able to eat half of the bag, leave the other half for dinner, I don't know.
MILCK:
That is self control. I think if I were to interview people for the CIA if I was part of that, I would have a bag of Baked Lays and then see if they could just save half of it. And if they could, I would bring them to the next round of interviews. I would respect that. That's some self-control.
Amena Brown:
It does feel a certain kind of discipline. I'm so glad we're talking about this because now, the further that I get to know people, and I'm actually building a team for another project I'm working on now, and I'm like, thank you, MILCK. This is something that I can be like, "If you eat a bag of Baked Lays, if you had a bag of Baked Lays and a foot long, would you split that sandwich? Describe to us the things that you're doing."
MILCK:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
So we can know if you're welcome here.
MILCK:
Also, did they offer to share with you? That's a big one too.
Amena Brown:
It's just a point of manners. It's just, sometimes I also like feel sharing food, it's one of those things MILCK, and maybe this is a character flaw with me, but I feel like it's one of those things like when you go on a date and you offer to pay ... I would find myself, I'm bringing my hand towards my purse, but I really don't have intentions of taking anything out of my purse that actually pays for anything. I'm just going to see how far I have to reach before the person I'm on a date with is like, "Oh no, I got it," and I'm like, "Oh, are you sure you got it?"
MILCK:
Yes, it's [inaudible 00:13:34]. Yes, I know.
Amena Brown:
And I feel like sharing food is sometimes that with me MILCK where I'm like, do you want some? And there is really a larger part of me that's like, "I don't want you to want some, because I want to eat all of this myself," and I don't know, maybe that's a character flaw with me, and maybe it depends on the food. I think there are certain foods that I'm like, if I have a box of donuts, I feel like, would you like a donut?
MILCK:
Let's talk about this as we develop our friendship. I want to know what your doughnut boundaries are. When you offer me a donut, do you actually want me to say yes? What is the truth? Let's bare our truths.
Amena Brown:
Okay, I think it depends on the ratio of doughnuts to people.
MILCK:
That is such a good answer.
Amena Brown:
Okay. So and I am a person who typically buys donuts in a bulk situation for some reason. I do recall a time of traveling where I was in a donut city. There is a couple of donuts cities, right? I think Chicago is a donut city. I think LA is a donut city. There's a couple of cities where there's like, Portland, Austin.
MILCK:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
Okay?
MILCK:
Okay.
Amena Brown:
These are like donut cities where there's a place there that you got to go there to get that donut. And I was in a city like that. And I'm like, why would I go there and not just get the dozen? But then I'm in the airport like, do you want some? Would you like a donut? These are things you can't be doing now.
MILCK:
You would offer to strangers?
Amena Brown:
I think I was asking. [crosstalk 00:15:04]. I think I did, because I was like, I feel like I can't really take all this. I think this only happened one time though, to be utterly honest, the rest of the time, I was like, no, I'm going to eat these when I get home. We don't need to. These are going to be so good in the morning.
MILCK:
And this thing you wrote about in your essay, you talked about not wanting to share your donuts. So I just wanted to address that, and I respect it.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. It's the ratio of donuts to people. So if you and I were somewhere and there's a box of a dozen donuts, you are absolutely welcome. If you and I are somewhere and there's six donuts, I feel like you're welcome. Where it gets a little tricky, is when you're in the two to three doughnut range right there, because if you only have two to three donuts, you really had designs on what you picked when you went there. You probably picked all favorites for yourself or favorites for one person and then the other favorites for yourself. So then if you offer someone, now you got a little tension in your jaw about, "Are they going to pick the lemon poppy seed," when that was your favorite? MILCK I'm also not for splitting donuts in certain situations. I feel like I have a lot of doughnut rules and that's...
MILCK:
I feel like you might need to start some type of donut blog or something. I just feel like it's really good. You have a lot to share about it.
Amena Brown:
Okay. Let me tell you a wild thing, my sister-in-law and I have a pop-up podcast called Here For The Donuts. An on said podcast, it's pop-up because literally, we pop up with an episode when we feel it, but-
MILCK:
I love it.
Amena Brown:
... It's literally us going to a donut place and we order a bunch of donuts and we split them between me, her and my husband, and then she, and I basically have an episode where we talk about feminism and vaginas and which of those donuts we had were delicious.
MILCK:
Awesome.
Amena Brown:
So I do actually love donuts enough that I do have a pop-up podcast about that. So I would share with you MILCK. I would share with you.
MILCK:
Okay, thank you.
Amena Brown:
We would it figure out. So you're bringing Baked Lays to the living room?
MILCK:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Amena Brown:
Other snacks? Or is that your one snack that like, that's it?
MILCK:
When you talked about hummus, I felt this deep joy within me, especially a partial re opened one. I just feel like it's friendship. You don't need to bring me new hummus like, "Enjoy that with yourself." That whole nicely smooth inch top. Just break that on your own. Have that moment for yourself. Come to me a little bit explored already. I'm down.
Amena Brown:
You want to see some swipes. Like some carrot swipes inside there, where I'm like, touché.
MILCK:
Yeah, celery. Celery is the bomb.
Amena Brown:
With hummus, yeah.
MILCK:
I don't really eat so much food right now, but I'm so happy. I can't tell you. I don't know, just going into mental health sidebar, it's been hard. And I feel like sometimes a day feels like a week. And then I was like, sometimes every fiber of your being is like, just cancel everything and just lie in bed and eat Baked Lays, but I was like, no, this is Amena. I've got to show up. And I'm like, I'm feeling completely better. We need each other. Can you really ...
Amena Brown:
We do need each other.
MILCK:
Okay, people.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Okay, yes.
MILCK:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:18:34].
Amena Brown:
Okay.
MILCK:
Not by crushers. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
Okay. Well, we need to be clear about that because not all people are those people. Some of those people you got to ...
MILCK:
They're on their journey. Yes.
Amena Brown:
Away from you. And that's, be on your journey away from me. That's the journey I want you on.
MILCK:
Wow.
Amena Brown:
Away from me.
MILCK:
You've just added a whole new dimension to that philosophy I have, because sometimes I'll meet someone like, wow, okay. They are on their journey, and then now I can stay away from me. That's the sass that you put into your essay that I was reading. I was like, that is sass. You're like, I don't care, my period doesn't care, I'm just going to do whatever the F I want.
Amena Brown:
Okay, let's talk about these essays because I need to get into this, because I feel as I was reading your essay and I know you all are listening like, if you don't tell us what the essay ... Okay, I'm going to tell you where these essays are in just a second. Okay. So let me catch you up.
MILCK:
Yeah.
Amena Brown:
So MILCK and I met originally in 2019 in the fall at the Together Live Tour in Houston. This was my first time ever doing Together Live, but it was not your first time, right? You had done this tour before.
MILCK:
Yeah, I did the tour the year before, and I would go to quite a few cities because there was the music and kind of tied it all together and listened to your piece, that was epic. You just stood there and you just shared words, and for some reason, all the feels.
Amena Brown:
Okay. This is-
MILCK:
The way you string the words together, yeah.
Amena Brown:
This was my same feeling watching you play and sing. And for those of you that aren't familiar with Together Live Tour, because it doesn't exist in that form anymore, but actually, the tour I was on with you that fall, that was the last one because we were supposed to continue the tour in 2020, but of course the pandemic came in and changed those plans, but what was interesting for me about Together Live is that it's only one of two tours I've ever been a part of where everyone stayed on stage together the whole time. So we all sat and had this very chic living room family, very well-designed family den vibes and then each of us would get up and sort of do our little time slot, but we also got to hear each other, which in other tours where an artist would open and then the other artist opens and then the headline artist, it's not always that all those artists actually hear each other's sets. So to get a chance to be on stage together and getting to hear you play, you all.
Amena Brown:
Okay. And let me tell you all something else that happened that night, everything that happened on stage was amazing. Well, then we have a dinner afterwards for all of the performers, speakers, people, and I think MILCK and I were sitting next to each other, I want to say, or diagonal adjacent somewhere, and we got down into some real industry conversation in how you build a team. And I just felt so seen because, those of you that work in any sort of creative realm, you know that some of the hard parts of that is we're doing creative work, but we're also in business trying to do that, and that makes things a strange thing. Do you remember us talking about that, that night? We're not going to tell you what we was talking about because some of it is not for public recording, but do you remember us talking about that MILCK? It felt very pivotal to me.
MILCK:
Yeah. And your manager, right?
Amena Brown:
That's right. Yes, she was there.
MILCK:
So that was really cool too, to have her witness the conversation to creatives to manager. And I remember going deep, because I was like, "Oh my gosh, these people that I'm meeting are incredible. No time for anything, but let's just get to the the Jiffy." Who says get to the Jiffy? I'm not quite sure, but it happened.
Amena Brown:
I knew exactly where the Jiffy was. When you said it, I was like, "I'm clear about where the Jiffy is located."
MILCK:
Howtosocial.com, yeah. And I think at that time, I'm constantly, as we all are, we're constantly searching for a truer version of ourselves or a truer way to be, and I think a lot of things were shifting in my career and man, since then, 2020 has brought on a lot of changes and I've actually become self-managed now. I'm in the process of leaving a major label deal on good terms. We love each other, it's just I'm starting to understand who I actually am and what I need rather than just climbing for prestige. I think there's an element of that to being the daughter of two immigrants who chose to participate in this economic system where there's this pressure like, you got to be three times as good as everyone else, you got to so that no one can deny your value. I think I got lost in that a little bit, and as I was climbing, I was like, "Wait, do I even want to do this and do I like the people who are climbing with me?" So yeah, I'm going through all those changes that were relevant from that conversation.
Amena Brown:
I think I am feeling two things while you were talking about that, MILCK. I think in part recalling the moment where I was when we were having that conversation, and I think you and I talked a little bit about this that night, that I was in a career transition that I had been in this very conservative Christian market and felt myself and my work broadening to a point that a lot of the content I was making either didn't make sense in that space or it was opposed in that space. And so at that moment that we are meeting up at the table at this night of Together Live, it's like we both were in these very interesting questioning times of our career, and for a lot of us as performing artists, part of the goal is to build this team for yourself, whether that's a manager, an agent, a record label, there's so many positions of people that that could be because the idea is that those people are supposed to be helping to steer or guide where your career is headed.
Amena Brown:
But it has happened to me in my career too in the past, that it was almost like in all of that shuffle and all of those meetings, it got lost on me where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do, and not just what was good for the trend in that moment or what could get you more attention by you doing this, and I was in that moment of reflection as you and I were sitting there talking. So I think I was remembering that just now, as you were talking about it.
MILCK:
From the outside perspective, it feels like such a brave move to have been in a certain niche and then feeling like you're either, you're just moving away from it. Like you're talking about this conservative niche, how did you feel deciding to grow beyond it? What was that experience like for you?
Amena Brown:
A friend of mine told me that she felt what happened to me is that I arrived into a certain part of the industry as a baby bird. So when I arrived and I got put in the cage, the cage felt amazing. It felt large and huge because I was a baby bird. Right? But then she said to me, you grew into your wings and you actually started growing your wingspan, and now you're realizing this cage that was a big home to you is actually too small for who you really are. And I really needed that visual because I was like, that is the perfect description of what was happening. Sort of like I was coming into myself. I was coming into myself as a woman, as a writer, as a performer, and I kept finding myself wanting to break out of the silos or boxes that were very easy for people to put me in or how they wanted to book me or the slot they felt like I should perform in, and me being like, "Well, I have more to say, and what if I have more to say than this slot that you've given me?"
Amena Brown:
So, I think it was that like, I'm coming into me and I need to be in spaces where I can be me. So even getting the invitation to do Together Live was life-changing for me honestly, because I felt like I'm on stage with other people who are my people, and there are people in this audience who are my people. I just did a thing on stage there that in a lot of the settings I was coming from would have been like, I don't know, maybe let's narrow that some. And I didn't narrow it, and I was me, and to feel like that was received was this affirmation.
MILCK:
Yeah. That was like one of those, okay that's cool to know that when we met, you were experiencing a big affirmation. You got to be whole, and you were held. And if I didn't know that watching you on stage while I was also sitting on stage witnessing your performance as if you had done that all the time, that's like you were ... it just felt very kismet. It was what it was supposed to be.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, right?
MILCK:
Yeah, but that was like to the essay. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
Okay, you all, I'm sorry. [crosstalk 00:28:46]. I told you all I was going to tell you all what in the world this had to do with ... Okay, look. So Jennifer Rudolph Walsh, who was one of the co-founders of Together Live, put together and edited a collection of essays called Hungry Hearts.
Amena Brown:
And you all, let me tell you, what was supposed to happen is that there would have been a Together Live Tour in the spring and in the fall of 2020, and this book would have been released in the fall while all of us were on the road together and all that. And bless our hearts that didn't happen, but we were already all writing and doing our essays, and so we all with the team that Jennifer had put together and our wonderful editors, everyone over at dial press, we all just kept writing and doing our edits and doing that work, and now here we are, the book is out, MILCK and I both have essays in this book, and I want to talk about your essay, and I also love how you come on my podcast and interview me. I see what you're doing, and I appreciate it. I was like, MILCK came on here, she's starting to interview me. I'm like, I've got to contemplate my little life.
MILCK:
You asked me about snacks. So a woman who starts with snacks is a woman who I want to get to know better. Should we put that on a t-shirt?
Amena Brown:
Yes. We need to do that. We need to have a collab t-shirt line between MILCK and Amena, and we can both wear our shirts. I know you all are listening, you all want to buy one right now. MILCK and I will talk about it. We'll figure it out. Your essay is called That Traveling Heat, and I have an idea ... when I read this, I really identified with the phrasing. I had never heard anyone describe that feeling as traveling heat, but I want to hear you tell us, how would you define traveling heat? Because you all, I did a little dance earlier from MILCK about the ways her essay made me feel, and it was like-
MILCK:
It was a good dance.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, I wish you all could see. It was like a little, there was some African dance and some salsa and some hands on the chest.
MILCK:
Your eyebrows are doing that like, mm-hmm (affirmative)- kind of thing. Like [inaudible 00:31:31] yes.
Amena Brown:
Voguing, but not very good voguing, a small amount of voguing. So before I'm like, here's what I experienced traveling heat as, tell us MILCK. What is the traveling heat?
MILCK:
Okay. So the traveling heat is the gift that we all have and that some of us forget, or don't even really understand as adults. I think as children, we listen to our bodies really instinctually because it's such a big part of our survival mechanism as children, and then as we get more heady and we go to school and we are told that our minds are the most important thing, then we start losing track of that heat that shows up when something in your intuition is ringing an alarm or something good. It doesn't have to be necessarily something bad, but I personally, as I describe this, I welcome everyone on this podcast to think where their body react to stress. Maybe something uncomfortable, maybe red flags when you meet someone new, or maybe even that heat when you see someone doing something that you're like, that is me. And I want to achieve that as well.
MILCK:
It's just a communication device that our bodies have with our souls or maybe our souls have with our consciousness or something, some type of bridge of communication between the divine and reality. And I learned to ignore that heat in my body when I was in my earliest relationship, which was manipulative and abusive, and I didn't know that's what it was, but that's what it was now looking back. And I remember I would feel all these sorts of heats and these moments of heat and moments of uncertainty and discomfort, but I knew if I showed it, I would anger my partner. So I learned how to just ignore it. And I got too good at ignoring it. And even now as I'm saying it, my body's heating up because I'm bringing up intense stuff.
MILCK:
So I've been following that traveling heat for the past few years now, and it's been a nice dance. I don't feel like I need to ... Glennon Doyle in her book, she talks about how she used to not trust her instincts, so she'd have to call everyone to ask for their opinions and make a survey, and then she would make decisions in her life. And I used to do that too, but now I save a lot of time by just listening to that traveling heat in my body and just follow that. It's kind of parallel to your essay, Period Playlist, because it's like our periods do inform us a lot of our carnal needs and desires, right?
Amena Brown:
It was interesting to me, and you made reference to this just now too. It was interesting to me, even the moments of joy or elation that you described as, that is also a traveling heat experience we have in our bodies, and that really, the whole essay meant a lot to me, but you also bringing up our bodies, our understanding when we're in danger, our bodies are understanding that something's happening, where our boundaries have been crossed, or someone has entered our space that is not trustworthy, our bodies are good at telling us that. And it was good for me to be reminded our bodies are also good at telling us when we are in our joy, when we are in our bliss.
MILCK:
That's powerful.
Amena Brown:
And I thought that was so beautiful, and it was such a good reminder for me as well that even when I think about ... when you describe this moment where you were experiencing that heat, when you see someone doing this thing that you're like, wait a minute, either I want to do that or like, that's me. I do that. And that was a big part of my artist discovery. When I was younger, I didn't really know I was going to become a performing artist. I knew I would write, I've been a writer since I was a little kid, but I didn't know, that would transform into this stage experience, and I had that traveling heat when I would see particularly other women, and I would say most of my upbringing, these were other black women speaking so boldly and powerfully. I grew up in church, so they were preaching and I didn't become a preacher, but there was something about that, that I just remember. When you described that in your essay, I was like, I remember feeling that even as a little girl and being like, my body is doing something here and I don't know what it means, but something about that is connected to me.
MILCK:
Yes, and it feels slightly ... did it feel torturous to you? Because it was torturous for me to sit and watch someone sing and perform, even though I loved it so much. Also, I loved it so much that it almost hurt. And I was like, I don't know what to do with this energy and I'd have to go to a piano and let it out.
Amena Brown:
I felt afraid. I remember that being my first feeling is I felt afraid. But I think I felt afraid because I don't know why I always had these worries about, is this going to mean I won't get to be a normal kid or a normal teenager or something? So I feared that me looking at this amazing Black woman preacher, and feeling something that's like, I think I'm supposed to be on a stage talking about something. I don't know what it is, but I'm supposed to do something like that, and then being like, does I'm going to have to become an adult right away? I don't want that. I think that was ... now that I'm an adult, I'm like, you should be afraid a little bit of that. Okay, but I think I was like, am I going to skip my childhood now and just have to become a grown lady with the big glitter lapels and big church hat or something? I don't know. I worried about that.
MILCK:
There is something deep in that, being daunted by the gloriousness that we know we are meant to be. And it's like, there's quotes about that all over the place. Like, you're not truly afraid of your weaknesses, you're actually afraid of your strengths. And you're like, "Yeah, whatever." But it's interesting like, I related to you when you were talking about being that baby bird in a cage and then eventually growing into a woman bird.
Amena Brown:
If that's a thing, a lady bird.
MILCK:
Yes, a lady bird.
Amena Brown:
Yes, a lady bird!
MILCK:
Lady bird. So then when your wings were hitting against the rungs of the cage, I can relate to that and then it made me think about, okay, then the bird has to decide to leave the cage and then there's that whole process of leaving and the imposter syndrome, and do I deserve this and Oh my gosh, can I handle it? And I think my biggest mental roadblock is I always, and I'm deconstructing it and working on it all the time and it feels good to share it now, is I don't know if I'm going to have enough energy. I don't know if I'm going to have enough energy to handle it all. And I would have this constant fear of that, and I don't know where that comes from, but I like naming it because I think sharing that maybe the power of it will get dispelled.
Amena Brown:
That's so powerful, because there are a lot of inner blocks and inner obstacles that it takes us a while to come to, and they are very unique to each person. So I've been reading more romance books lately, shout out to my friend Leigh for always putting me on to the good romance books to read, but I've just been like, I really can't take trauma right now. I need to read some meet-cutes, some just light something of some people that are happily ever after. I need to do that in my life. So I was reading this short story, MILCK, and it's about this woman who is a pianist, but she has had a nervous breakdown, and that has caused her to have stage fright after all these years of performing. It's like this thing she was used to doing without even thinking about it now, there's huge fear for her going back to play.
Amena Brown:
And she had this part in the story where she's talking about how she realizes she's afraid that she doesn't have anything to say now. And I was reading this on my phone or something, but if I had had the physical book, I would have closed that book up and been like, get out of here. I came here for people to fall in love and go to nice restaurants, I did not come here for you to get in my business. This is your story, this is your situation, this is not about what's going on in my life. And I had to go to my little notes at MILCK and be like, I think that's one of my blocks right there. That I spent all this time in very white, very conservative, very evangelical space, and what if when I'm away from that, and I don't have to fill in the blanks with the types of messages people want me to say, what if I don't have anything to say?
Amena Brown:
I had to type it out in my notes app. You're really the first person I've talked to about this.
MILCK:
Well, thanks for sharing that. When you typed it out, how did it feel? Did it dispel the power or are you more just curious about it?
Amena Brown:
I think it did dispel some of the power because it was like, as soon as I typed it, I was like, "Well, that's not true. It's not true."
MILCK:
It's the knowing. That's that traveling heat too.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
MILCK:
Like, you're fine.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. It's good to type that out so you can release it and it can stop blocking you because now you can be like, "I have a thousand things I could say, and some things I've wanted to say that I haven't made space for myself to say, so there's much more to write. I haven't written all the things that I can write or want to write in my life." I also go through those phases in writing where I'm like, what if it's not as good as the poem I wrote those two years ago when everybody said they loved that one, and what if I don't write a thing like that? And now this stuff is coming out sounding so different than that thing was two years ago, and how do people a poet whose poems don't even rhyme most of the time?
Amena Brown:
And I'm just in my head about the whole thing, but it was freeing just to be like, you're going to ... And actually MILCK, you and I started talking about this right before it was like, people, everyone needs to go to bed, because when we were there in person at the tour that fall 2019, it was like, oh my gosh, I don't know what time it is in the morning, but people have flights and people need to get out of here and go to bed. But you and I were talking about how I was struggling to write, because I was just like, "I don't know what my voice is now. I don't know what it's going to do." And I think I've still been in the process of like, when I am not forced to end a message with this particular thing, what do I want to say? I think I'm just now coming to that part where I'm like, maybe I want to say this, maybe I want to say that. Does that make sense?
MILCK:
Yeah, I have goosebumps. So did you just keep showing up? How did you deal with ... Yeah from then when I saw you to now, what happened, what's been happening? How have you been approaching those artistic challenges?
Amena Brown:
I think some of it was, and this is really hard to do. I'm saying it you all, but it's hard to do. Some of it was trying my best to write without letting my editor self be in the room with me. And it's super easy to say but it's actually a lot harder to do, especially once you've started writing in a way that has paid you money or given you exposure to this or that, then you start writing and you're like, "I don't even know if that's going to work on stage." You start having those kinds of thoughts and doing everything I can to be like, that doesn't matter. We just have to write.
MILCK:
One of the best pieces of advice I've gotten from a producer I was working with on a record, he was like, "Create like a child, edit like a scientist, surrender like a warrior." So when we first go into a session and write, we don't question, edit anything. It's just like, what it is? Okay, cool, and just slather ideas onto the wall, a bunch of paint balls, and then later we refine after we've taken a bit of space. And actually during quarantine, I have been experimenting with my creative voice too, because I understand what you're saying about feeling like, okay, well, what do I want to say beyond this? When Quiet went viral, I was propelled into so many different spaces talking about healing and trauma, talking about what it's like to be an Asian woman and all these things, but I was like, is that all? Those are important topics, but what does my truth want to explore? If it's still within that realm, awesome, but I just want to be true and I don't want to be catering to my past.
MILCK:
And so during this quarantine, I started approaching the piano as if I didn't know how to play it. My best friend moved in and she doesn't know how to play the guitar, but then she started picking up and playing it and writing songs. I was like, okay, well that's annoying.
Amena Brown:
Super annoying.
MILCK:
Please, please. I'm like, cool, but also very inspiring. And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting. I'm going to just close my eyes and then rest my fingers on the piano and see what notes come out." And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting, and I'm not going to look at it, because I can see the theory," and I'm like, "I need to try to just not see the theory and then just get into a trance." So I would play literally just three chords, back and forth, back and forth until it was so easy to play that I was floating, and then I let my body improvise and start writing. And I started writing some stuff that is now informing the next thing, because I just needed to get out of my head, my adult head.
Amena Brown:
That's such a big thing, is getting out of our heads. Because even when you named the child, the scientist, I was like, "Oh, I live in the scientist mostly." I'm mostly like, I know what you all need to do to change this equation and make this formula like this and fix that, but try taking that into writing from scratch and it's terrible. And you feel like why did I ever sign up to do this for a living? This is a terrible job. You feel like the worst because you're in there trying to bring equations to something that is never going to have math like that.
MILCK:
Yeah, because it's like magic. We're kind of channeling some magic dough and then we can take out the human tools and start refining it. Yeah. That's where I'm at currently, and also just trying to show up as much as possible and surrendering to the fact that I might write nothing one day and just be at the piano and just totally feel. I feel defeated, but it's also like, okay, well I have tomorrow, I'll come back tomorrow and I'll see if there's any scraps of ideas in this. If not, I'll just start fresh. I'm trying to just be as committed and loyal to the practice and the craft. That's been a gift during this time, because there's no distraction. There are distractions, but I'm not able to distract myself with traveling and chasing things externally.
Amena Brown:
Right. That is so powerful, MILCK. It's so powerful to think of that and to think of all that could be waiting for us in the process of going, and I can just try this again tomorrow. I feel like I've been talking with a lot of Women of Color who do creative work and there is this kind of consistent conversation among us about, what does it mean to create not out of survival, and that many of us have had that experience a lot where we were making this or that because this paycheck was attached to it or making this or that because this contract was attached to it. And some of that will still remain because of the business that we're in, but how can we create more spaces for ourselves where the creation is not attached to that? Where the creative process is more about giving ourselves the space, giving our souls the space to say, if our souls want to say, or giving the music this opportunity to do what it wants to do that day. And if that's nothing, then again tomorrow.
MILCK:
Yeah, that's well said. I remember when I was first coming up and this is before I started making a living full-time, but I was doing internships. Basically, there's a couple of people I looked up to in the industry that I had connections with and I reached out and I said, "Can I work for you for free? I just want to be there and I want to be around your philosophies and edit your files. I just want to be around greatness." And so I ended up working for this woman named Adrienne Gonzalez, also woman of color, amazing. She was probably the first person that fiercely believed in me and it changed my trajectory. What a gift to have people that believe in us. And I remember that I was going to have to allot some of the hours that I was doing singing in hotel lobbies, because that's how I was making my living, with singing in hotel lobbies. And I would also teach singing lessons. I was like, okay, I'm going to have to take some of that income out of my expected income and then put those hours towards interning for free. And I told Adrian, I was kind of nervous about that. I was like, "I'm nervous about doing this." She's like, "Well, sometimes you got to take a leap of faith."
MILCK:
And I remember I had saved up enough to do this "financial free fall," but it also felt like a lift. That whole journey of taking a gamble on myself and allowing myself to make a little less, I wasn't making a ton of money, but I was like, okay, this is going to be scraping by now, but the things that I learned and the confidence I gained helped me walk into the next opportunities. And then I think within that year, I started making full-time income because Adrienne and I started creating music that got placed on TVs and film.
Amena Brown:
Wow.
MILCK:
And that's how I got my first start. So I was like, I don't know if there's other women of color or artists of color listening to this, it's like maybe that's good for us to talk about. It's like those moments where we gambled and then it works. Not recklessly, but of course honor our safety, but I hope I do that in my more developed artists career too. Now I've been making money professionally as an artist for the past six years or so, and now I'm doing a similar thing where I'm leaving a major label and I'm deconstructing some of the things and it feels like that free fall again, but I feel creative. And not saying that's the answer for everybody, but I don't know. It just feels true and scary, but it feels true. And that's the fuel.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I think there's so much power in that, because I've been talking to some of my other women of color friends about how I feel like I always need to have something that I'm making, even if it's a small thing. I need to have something that I'm making that doesn't have any bearings on my business that I'm making it because I want to, and I'm just going to see what it does. And almost every time I've done that, it's an interesting chicken and egg thing, because almost every time I've done it, it's made me feel freer inside, it's given me more space inside because I'm actually making something or experimenting with something that I want to make, and I'm like, I don't know how this is going to turn out, I'm just trying it and we'll see what it does.
Amena Brown:
And that process itself is so inspiring, but it has happened to me a lot of the times that when I started taking myself through that, that that was the moment someone came along and was like, what's this you're making? How can we help fund that thing? And that's kind of weird too because it's like, man, as soon as I get out here trying to just make something, then somebody comes along like, "Maybe I can help fund that. Maybe we can figure out some things," but then when you're trying to get funded and you're trying to make something to be like, I'm going to make this, so I get funding, it's like tumbleweeds literally blowing through everything. And the point of doing that, is not so that whatever entities come along will be like, let me fund this, the purpose of it is for the process itself.
Amena Brown:
But every time I've done it, it helped me own my voice more, it helped me to figure out what I wanted the direction of things to be. It also helped me to see of the other work I was doing, how much of it I actually enjoy or love, because I was doing something I loved. So then I'd go to this event and be like, "I don't like this actually," and I know I don't like it because I know I love doing that thing that I'm making up over here. It was a good litmus test in a way, right?
MILCK:
That's a very educating thing for me, because what you just said reminds me of the fact that I could write 20 songs and I don't need to "monetize" every one of the 20 songs. And just because number 11 doesn't get monetized, doesn't mean number 11 is any less worthy. It probably helped fuel number 12 that maybe got monetized or even if it doesn't, it still helped me get to 12, which taught me something about my life. That's cool. I think that's like also healing from just the capitalist expectations put on to us as artists. I said it. [inaudible 00:54:56].
Amena Brown:
Okay, because that's the thing. I'm not going to lie that I was literally daydreaming in the car the other day like, what would it be like? I'm like, this is just socialism, I think, but okay. What would it be if everyone made the same amount of money, everyone? What would that mean for us as artists to be in a society like that, that wasn't built on capitalism? Maybe it's not built on socialism either, but it sounds like socialism, but I was just imagining if everybody ... if I just make up a number, if everybody made $40,000, everybody, whether you are a doctor, plumber, you're a painter, everybody made $40,000, then what would that do for my creative process? Sometimes I think things like that just to try to get my mind to reimagine, and sometimes it opens up this door in my mind that's like, oh, if it were like that, I'd make this.
MILCK:
I love that. That's such a good thought experiment. Yeah, because I think one of the things that I've heard from some people say, "Oh, well, then we wouldn't innovate as much, because we would be less motivated," but I'm like, "Do you buy that really?"
Amena Brown:
I don't think so.
MILCK:
Right? I feel like we're motivated by connection and love. So yeah. We'd want to just create stuff to connect with each other. If I made the same amount as everyone else, and then you came along and shared a poem, I don't know. It would just ignite something that would make me want to do it. Because when I was a kid, I wasn't wanting to be a singer because of the money. It was just that traveling heat that just taught me. I don't even know what ... that was just given to me, that heat, and it said, you got to do that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, right? You all, MILCK just makes me want to talk to her all day guys.
MILCK:
Four hours later.
Amena Brown:
Okay. This is my last question for you MILCK, and you talked a little bit about this, but I'm just curious as our last thought together here, what do you feel is next for you? And I want you to hear the spirit in which I ask this question, because I've been in interviews where this question gets asked and it's really like, what's the project, what's the door, what's the ... it's really this striving question under there, and then you get asked that as an artist, and you're like, "Well, I guess I'm trying to write on the ... I'm probably going to ..."
MILCK:
[inaudible 00:57:40].
Amena Brown:
I'm going to start a bow tie company, I guess, because I need to have an answer for what's next.
MILCK:
That's so right. That little panic. I'm like, "Yeah, well I'm writing 700 songs right now. So yeah. I'm doing a lot."
Amena Brown:
Yeah, that's what's next for me. Okay? So it is not in that spirit that I asked this question. I'm really asking a broader question, what I hope is, it could be a question that could involve other projects or things you're creating, but in your soul, it's a soul question for me, what do you feel like in this season is next for you?
MILCK:
I love that question in that context. I was just telling myself that I am going to work on building more compassion for myself and being a better friend to myself. I'm seeing a really intense, inner dialogue I have, and partially part of that, got to do things three times as well as a woman of color to get a seat at the table. I'm reckoning with some of those ideas and resting in the possibility, maybe I can also lie down once in a while and maybe take a nap. Yeah, and giggle at my flaws a little more. I'm just trying to have more compassion, is I do think as I'm working on this, I am becoming way more patient and compassionate with other people. And I'm not a mean harsh judgmental person, but I think I have this side, if someone doesn't reply right away, I'm like, they do. Or I feel I need to be a certain amount of awesome to be worthy in a room, and it's like, no one wants to have that energy in the room. We're all just trying to be more free.
MILCK:
So I think this is my first step to being a better citizen in the world, is being better to myself. But not in a self-indulgent way where I'm like, okay, I'm going to block out all the news and everyone all the time and only focus on me, it's a balance like in that dance, even figuring out how much to focus on myself and the communities around me, that's also, I'm going to have compassionate about that. That sometimes I'm going to not have a healthy balance for a little bit, and that's okay, because I don't know if there is balance. We're just figuring it out as we go.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. MILCK, you are just ... you all. I hope you all ate y'all some Baked Lays original as you were listening to this and I hope that you all embraced these gems and the laughs that MILCK brought us. MILCK, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
MILCK:
Thank you, Amena.
Amena Brown:
Just know as soon as the world opens up and I make my way back to where you live, it is all hugs and close talking, and I don't care.
MILCK:
Just talk in my face.
Amena Brown:
Just super close talking. Super in your personal space. You're going to be like, "Wow, I really don't think we know each other that well," I'll be like, "I think we do. I think we do MILCK."
MILCK:
I think we do. Thanks for having me.
Amena Brown:
You all, isn't MILCK amazing and so inspiring? I hope you enjoyed our conversation and I hope you go wherever you like to buy and stream your music and find MILCK's music there. You can also follow MILCK on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram @MILCK music. That's M-I-L-C-K music. Also, check out MILCK's work in social change, Somebody's Beloved fund, where she collects donations and raises awareness for racial justice, feminism, LGBTQ rights, criminal justice reform and mental health. You can check all that out at www.somebodysbeloved.com, Somebody's Beloved fund. If you haven't already, make sure you go to your favorite bookseller and get a copy of Hungry Hearts: Essays on Courage, Desire, and Belonging, and check out the essays written by MILCK, me, and some other really amazing writers.
Amena Brown:
For this week's edition of Give Her a Crown, I want to shout out Cuban American singer queen of salsa music, Celia Cruz, known for her amazing vocal range, flamboyant fashions, incredible improvisation and fantastic wigs, one of which is featured at the Smithsonian. I would love to get to the point where I could have a wig featured at the Smithsonian. I discovered Celia in my late 20s when I decided to take salsa lessons by myself, instead of waiting for it to be a boot up thing to do. And let me tell you, if you have anything in your life that you're waiting to do until you have a boo, find a way to do that thing by yourself. Okay? Buy a house, take yourself on a date, learn to dance, whatever it is, don't wait until you have a boom.
Amena Brown:
Anyway, I started taking salsa dance classes and wanted to listen to salsa musical on my own, and my research on this led me to Celia Cruz. I downloaded songs, I bought one of her albums on vinyl, I loved the timbre of her voice, the way her music inspires me to move my hips. Celia Cruz passed away in 2003, but the legacy of her music lives on. Celia Cruz, give her a crown.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti productions, as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network and partnership with iHeart Radio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.