Amena Brown:
Hey everybody. In this week's episode from the HER Archives and from the Before Times, I'm talking with podcaster and education advocate Dr. Alma Zaragoza-Petty. Dr. Alma shares with us how she overcame obstacles on her path to education. Listen in as Dr. Zaragoza-Petty shares the barriers first generation students encounter on their path to higher education and why it's important for marginalized people to pursue higher education. Let's take a listen.
Amena Brown:
Hey, everybody, listeners. Oh my gosh. Welcome back. We are in the middle of such a fantastic season two and I'm so excited to have our next guest. Our theme for this episode is finding a path to higher education, so I want to welcome L.A. native, Dr. Alma L. Zaragoza-Petty. You all, I'm just so excited about it, listen. So just so you all know, Alma does all the things, but specifically she works in L.A. as a first generation student retention specialist in higher education. She is also the cohost of The Red Couch Podcast, which... I love this description. A brown eyed social and political commentary with a hood twist. Yes, I'm here for it. Welcome Dr. Alma to the podcast. This is me clapping because no one's here.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Hey. Thank you.
Amena Brown:
No one else is here to clap, Alma. So, I'm just...
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
We will clap for ourselves.
Amena Brown:
That's right. That's right. We deserve these claps. So let me tell you how I first heard about you, Alma, which was many years before we ever met, and technically we've never met in person still, I don't think.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
No, we haven't. We've had conversation about the fund.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
We both planned a conference, but never in person.
Amena Brown:
We've done all the things, except see each other in person. But I first heard about you from your husband, whose government name is Jason, but I didn't know that until I had known him for five years. We were on an email training, and people were like, "And then Jason is going to announce." Like, "Who are they talking about?" I was like, "Oh, Propaganda, that's his government name." So normally, in the faith based space, spoken word poets don't get booked at the same things, typically. It's like they just book us one at a time, I don't know why. Except Prop and I would get booked for the same events, for many years we would. And so I was sitting down in the green room, I'm talking to him and he was just going on and on about how brilliant you were, and all these things that you knew, and what you were studying and what you teach people.
Amena Brown:
And when people are married, it's hard because you're not sure if they think their person is brilliant because they live with them and be in the bed with them and stuff. So you just smile and like, "Oh, that's so good."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
[crosstalk 00:03:03] Struggles or you get that special...
Amena Brown:
Really? I was just like, "Oh, that's really nice he thinks that of her." And then when I talked to you and knew more about you, I was like, "Oh, no. He was actually very accurate, super accurate." So shout out to Prop for just giving me all the brilliant information, because he was very correct. Because sometimes people be married and they be like, "Oh, my husband. He sings so well." And then you're like, "No."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Oh, no. That's the worst.
Amena Brown:
Really.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I always feel I won't live up to his descriptions of me though, because he is just my number one fan. He's just an amazing supporter of mine, and it's just really cool whenever people tell me that. I'm just like, "Man, I really hope I don't disappoint you now, because he talks me up so big."
Amena Brown:
And listeners, if you're not familiar, Dr. Alma is married to Propaganda, who's a fantastic poet and MC and thought leader, so you want to know about that. But we're talking to Dr. Alma today, so we gonna talk to her and you can do the research on those things or on their podcast. So I have to tell Alma that I have a cousin who is also named Alma, okay. But all my people are from North Carolina, so when I was growing up, I knew her name to be Amma.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Is there no L in there?
Amena Brown:
No, the L... We don't know where the L went, the L been gone. So all these years, I thought her name A-M-M-A, Amma. That's seems like that would make perfect sense. And there was something that I had to invite her to, that my grandma spelled her name out for me, and I was like, "Who is Alma?" She was like, "That's your cousin, Amma." No it's not, no it's not. Where... How Amma come from Alma, those are two... How that work out? So I still don't know where the L is, but I guess that happens in North Carolina. Just consonants walk out, we don't know where they go.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Yeah. I love it. Yes, every person that I've met that has any... Knows anyone with my name, is usually a older Black woman named Alma as well. I guess. No seriously. I don't know why this is a thing. Or they're legit just Latina, other Latinas. So those are the two populations that apparently... Alma is an old school name that a lot of older Black women have and then people went to start calling me Aunt Alma, because they probably have only heard those term... My name-
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I'm like...
Amena Brown:
Well, if there's ever an army of Almas, I know now... I know what they're going to look like, it's going to be some amazing Latinas and this generation of older black women. They'll all band together, I can't wait.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Yeah.
Amena Brown:
So I'm so excited that you're on the podcast, because first of all, because I just think you're awesome and amazing. So basically a part of having a podcast as you know, is begging people that you think are awesome and be like, "Hey, would you spend some time with me, telling me all the things?" But I also just love what you're doing in your work that you, yourself pursued higher education. You're also helping encourage other students and in particular, students of color and in particular, first generation students how to pursue higher education. So I always like to start with an origin story. So I want to ask you, what was the moment that you knew you wanted to pursue higher education? And I'll use a story of my own as an example. So my mom was a nurse when I was growing up, and she introduced me to a pediatrician, I was nine years old. And she was a graduate, her name was Dr. Stephanie and she was a graduate of Spelman College, right.
Amena Brown:
And my mom said she walked me in, introduced me to her, left me in the office talking to her for a few minutes. And she said I just wouldn't stop talking about going to Spelman after that. And that was my one moment of meeting this woman and being like, "Oh, something about her, I like." Something about...I couldn't tell you what we talked about, but I certainly went to Spelman, all those years later, right. And I think that's interesting even just the exposure we have to other people and other experiences that makes us dream for our life differently than we may have. So was it a moment that you had? Or a time in your life that you were like, "I'm going for this, I'm going to do it."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Well, first I want to back up and say that I also admire you. You gave me an awesome introduction, but I actually have seen your poetry now via video at the last conference that the Jefferson Institute put on here in L.A. And I was just blown away, so you are equally amazing and thank you for inviting me. It's my honor to be here as well and I'm excited for even that invitation, so thank you. And then just to answer, I guess more to the point, I think for me it wasn't the big moment, it more a series of events. So I remember growing up, and my parents were actually... They worked in what I now know was a sweat shop, it was a actual Korean owned textile sweat shop, where they made clothes. And my mom was a seamstress, so she would sew. And then my dad, my stepdad who raised me since I was eleven, he would iron. That was his job, he would iron the clothes before they would get sent out to these fancy stores, right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I spent every summer basically at my mom's job, because... I mean we are getting too much into my convoluted grow up story. But basically I was raised apart from my siblings because we were all brought back from Mexico, like one at a time, because my parents couldn't afford us all at once here. So I was the first one brought back, so I had to spend three summers just chilling in my mom's sweat shop where she worked, and just seeing these women and men just work so hard everyday, it was just like, "Oh, my gosh. They work so hard. How can I not do this when I grow up? I don't want to be on my last cent." It was inspiring because they had such a hard work ethic, but at the same time it was scary to think, "Am I going to spend my life like that? I don't know that I want to do that."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I think a lot of that came from my dad. My dad would tell me, "Hey, I don't want you to grow up and do this kind of job. It's hard, it's really intense. It's physically draining and you're just tired." And he wanted more for us, he would always say, "You need to work hard so that you don't end up like me." That was literally his message to me, right. So a lot of it was coupled with that and my own ideas of how I didn't want to do that. But because we grew up at... As myself, first generation here in the US, so both my parents are immigrants from Mexico. And because I was the first one here, I didn't have a lot of examples of what else can I be. It was a lot of trial and error, growing up.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
So a lot of it was teachers believing in me before I even realized, "Oh, yeah. I should do that." One specific example was my math teacher, my senior year in high school. I had graduated with honors and I had been, for the most part, taking a lot of advanced courses, but for some reason, I was never tracked in to college because my ninth grade was spent ditching with my ex boyfriend, you know. So I actually had straight Ds my whole ninth grade, but I was always academic, but that year I happened to really f up and no one tracked me to go to college. They were all like, "Oh, this girl." So I literally was... Even though I graduated with honors, had never been told about applying for college or doing... Making sure I was doing all of that. So it just took that teacher telling me, "Hey, so what are your plans after high school?" And I was like, "Oh, I've already signed up for the Army."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
One of my friends had decided she was going to join the Army, and so I was like, "Okay, that sounds good. I'll do that." I had no idea what I wanted to do, and so I was pretty lost at that time. I was just like, "No, I don't want to do this, but..." Anything sounded better than that, at that point. So I was like, "Yeah, the Army. That sounds like a great idea." So I signed up, and that specific teacher, who's also actually a Latino. A teacher that I had in high school told me... I just love the way that he turned the phrase on its head and was like, "Why do you want to go somewhere..." Because you know their slogan is, "Be all that you can be." How are you going to be really all that you can be when you're being told what to be?
Amena Brown:
Wow.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I was just like, "Huh?" It just totally... And not that I have any... Obviously there's a lot of people that serve in the Army, I'm grateful for their service and sacrifice. But it was definitely not something I wanted to do, it was just that there was such an active recruitment of people like me in my high school to go to the Army forces. And that was my only viable way of thinking I can get to college, which was my actual dream to do. At that point I was like, "No, I want to go to college, and this is one way that I can do it." So yeah, it was that. It wasn't a counselor telling me to apply to financial aid, even though I was not sure what I was going to do after high school. She just made everybody sign up.
Amena Brown:
Wow.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And was like, "Okay, even if you think you're not, just do it. Because what if you change your mind?" And I was definitely one of those. Yeah, it was that, it was people seeing the potential in me and helping me think deeper about what I really wanted to do. And it opened up a whole other world to me that I didn't even know existed.
Amena Brown:
So you went into undergrad. What did you decide was going to be your major in undergrad?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
In undergrad, I quickly learned that I really liked working with people. Specifically on a one on one level, that's just my really good space, where I really feel alive and just... I love it, and so I thought, "I'm going to be a psychologist," that was my first flag, until I was little. I need a major in psychology to do that, so that's how I decided to major in psychology. I didn't know at the time that UCLA, which is where I got my undergraduate degree from, I didn't know at the time that it was actually very biological there. So it was very much cognitive psychology, which was not as fun. I did not enjoy that. So I ended up adding English literature as a minor, because it just kept me feeling alive during that time where I had to learn about all these synapses and things. I was like, "Oh, I don't really care about this, guys." Yeah.
Amena Brown:
And then, from there went into your masters. So what did you decide from there, after leaving undergrad? I feel like a lot of people get towards that in time of undergrad and are like, "Should I go get a masters? Should I not?" So how did that extension happen for you? And then, did you decide you wanted to still study similarly? Or how did your studies change or stay the same when you went into your masters?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
So because I didn't really have a lot of people around me guiding that process of higher education, that knew what it took, I actually went the most of long of round ways to get a PhD. So I have actually... I mastered in counseling that I got before my PhD, and then during my PhD program, I also got a masters in education, because I didn't know you could do that. So if I would've known before, I would have just gone straight to my PhD and gotten a PhD. But I was also real hard headed when I was young, so I'm sure some people probably tried to tell me and I was just like, "No, I'm doing this on my own."
Amena Brown:
Right. Story of our twenties, definitely. Like, "Oh, that's what you're saying? No, I'm not doing that."
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I ended up deciding that I wasn't sure if I wanted to work with college students, because I had already been working with college students at that time. I had been working from when I was in my own college experience, East Los Angeles community college. I started out at community college. I started working in the admissions' office really quickly and realizing like, "Wow, there's not a lot of people like me here already," and I'm just starting community college and just feeling like I wanted to do something about that. But I also have a really big heart for children, younger population. At that time I was like... So I was really conflicted, so I took a year off after UCLA to try actually working with children and see how I liked it. So the fact that I'm working with college students and Latino, I didn't like it.
Amena Brown:
Didn't work out.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Didn't work out. I mean, I also doom myself in the most extreme way of helping... Or working with that population, I worked at a group home for a year. Yeah, in a residence where, basically students or kids go once they've aged out or have... No one wants them, and I say that in terms of their family. They've been in the system for too long and just no one is picking them up, because no around that is going to... And it's also... Was one where a lot of the kids there were heavily medicated, they just had a lot of issues that really at times, created unsafe environments for themselves and others. So they had to sedate them often, and it was just intense, girl. I was in there, I was like, "What is this?"
Amena Brown:
Why?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
It was just too much for me. I would just go home and nap the sadness away and just try to get up the next day and go back at it. But it was a blur, that year, it just was intensely emotional, draining just everything. And I was just like, "Yeah, I don't think I'm cut out for this." It was just too much on me, and so I decided, "I think I should stick to working with that population that I've been interested in," which is college age students. And I ended up applying to counseling programs because my goal was to become an advisor at a university or a college where I would help students get to the next step on their own in their own academic life.
Amena Brown:
I mean, shout out to you trying this out though, because I...First of all, I also love college students. Before I was a full time artist, I worked in a local church capacity, working with college students and I still... When I get invited to a college, it's still one of the most... One of my favorite places to be, maybe because it was just such a time of formation for me, in so many ways. What I wanted to do with my life, what I thought about God, what I thought about love and friendship and all these things in such a short amount of time in your life. So I love students.
Amena Brown:
But one of the things I love to tell them is, "Hey, you're a college student, try something. If you think you want to do it, hey, go try it and see, then you'll know." So it's like you got a chance to try that, albeit in a really tough space and environment, but then you knew. Like, "Whoa, I did that. That's not my jam." Let me go to something that is more my jam than this.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Right.
Amena Brown:
Can you talk about... First of all, we know that we need more women of color. As many marginalized people as possible in the field of higher education, because a lot of... I only have my bachelors in... My degree from the school of hard knocks, but my other friends who have pursued higher education, particularly those who were women of color or people of color, they would talk about how the higher of a degree they got, the less they saw people there that looks like them.
Amena Brown:
Or the less they were being taught by people who looked like them. What are the barriers for, particularly, first generation students pursuing higher education? What are the... In your work, what are the obstacles that first generation students are coming up against that may prevent from of them, or make it even more challenging for them to pursue higher education.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I mean, I think it'd be a lie if we don't start off with the fact that finances are big component if you're a first generation student. You don't have the capital to think about how you're going to pay for it, and so that is already off the bat, working against you. Because you're like, "Man, how am I even going to be able to pay for this? I don't want to be in debt my whole life, taking out loans." In California anyway, I'm not sure how it works in other states, but I know a lot of California policy and the context here. And I know that here, students whose parents make a certain level of income, will get grant. So they get totally paid for, for them, right. So that's one quick way that they're able to now envision like, "Okay, I can do this." One of the reasons I went to UCLA was actually... It was not my top choice, my top choice was Berkeley. And I actually got accepted to Berkeley, but their financial package was non-existent. So I was like, "Bye, Berkeley. I'm totally going to UCLA."
Amena Brown:
You know that's right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
They offered me a full ride. They paid for my studies.
Amena Brown:
Wow.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I think part of it is this initiative, also in California, where they want to keep locals, they have to basically grant some scholarships for those in the local community. And a lot of universities do this throughout the United States, where they want to invest in the local community, to get degrees and... So they off set costs for students like me, who aren't able to pay, through scholarships. Then obviously the grants also kicked in. So basically it was a gap scholarship, whatever the grant didn't cover, they would. So I think, that for sure, and finding ways to help students. Even just demystify all that and know that there is some support there, and that there's different ways to get scholarships and all that, it's always important. I feel pretty sure recent students... And I would say, if I had to name one other thing, it's definitely the different ways that mental health shows up for students, for people.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I know that I went through all of college just searching... Trying out a lot of stuff. I definitely was wilding out, doing all of the things. And a lot of that was out of my own trauma, unidentified trauma from my... Just growing up in a very low resource community, there isn't access to stuff like dental. I remember in grad school, finally taking advantage of all the dental insurance that we had, because I was like, "Oh yeah, I haven't gone since I was... Since I stopped getting Medi-Cal when I was eighteen years old. I should probably go now."
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Because that's real. A lot of my students that I work with, those are the kinds of things that they're up against. They're just not realizing... Or just having to deal with basically, the consequences of their parents having to sacrifice, coming to a whole other country and what that does to you on an emotional level. Where you're not very present sometimes with kids and because you're just trying to survive out here. But it also means that a lot of students grow up not really knowing how to emotionally... Even traverse all of the requirements and scheduling your classes and study time, and all these little things that a lot of other who are not first generation are coming in with the skills. They already have folks that have talked to them about this, even through high school. I would say, mental health in the way that it just shows up differently for people in our first gen people of color. The trauma of realizing you are the only Latina sitting at the table in many instances, and what that does to you psychologically.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Even when you're not tokenized, you're just like, "There's no one else here. If I speak, will they think this is a Latino voice speaking?"
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Yeah. I would say that's definitely another huge barrier, just of different ways that... That imposter syndrome kicks in when we are in those spaces. And learning how to find your voice through that or how to be quiet sometimes, and just be like, "Lord, just get me through this."
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I will do all the therapy when I'm done.
Amena Brown:
Right. And it happened to be like, "It is not my job to speak for all these things. I can come here and be a student, you all can figure out your racism, reading The New Jim Crow. I don't need to also be a student and consult you on your white supremacy. That I can do my stuff I'm doing and let you do your work over there." Which is so powerful to me. I was not expecting you to bring up mental health as a barrier, and that is so powerful, because I think... I know from my experience, being a Black woman, even in undergrad... And I went to an all Black, all female college, right. I think even the idea that maybe is in some of us that grew up coming from marginalized contexts, this idea that you've got into college, you don't have permission to be depressed. You don't have permission to now be dealing with trauma or that PTSD might be popping up in these ways, and you didn't expect or know to call it PTSD, or know that that was a panic attack.
Amena Brown:
And just for students now, younger than us, to have the permission of, you don't have to carry your whole neighborhood and your family line and all these things, that you also are a person, that your feelings and thoughts and your struggles, that they matter. That's so powerful, that you brought that up.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Yeah. I mean, I've seen it so much with my students, even now, where they have a lot of... Because of... I mean, I blame the media and the way that we don't represent our voices in any different kinds of stream and... Mainstream art and that kind of thing, where they have these ideas of themselves as being less than. Putting up just mental barriers like, "Oh, yeah. I really suck at this." Not having that mindset of, "No, this is challenging and you need to do these things to overcome it." It's almost this mentality of... And I don't want to pathol... Make it a pathology of the poor or first generation students, because I feel like this happens in the culture at large to the other population. But just the talking of... Having them here, basically repeating back to them what they're saying and how that's not how everyone thinks of themselves, it's actually depression. If you think you are this, this and that. Having students for example, share stuff like they just really suck and add something, and they can't believe that they failed this one thing and that just means they're a failure.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And creating this whole story about how much that means that they don't belong in college now. And I'm just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's back up three different steps, because you are doing... You're jumping to this conclusion that you convinced yourself of, that is not real. You are being challenged as you should in college, in a hard topic that you've heard of, that maybe you weren't prepared for in the schools you come from because of just the lower resources that are even there. That's who are the problem, but here are some steps you need to take to make sure that you do well," like tutoring, creating study groups, all these thing that we can rephrase in the ways that we think about our own learning and what we're capable of or not capable of.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Why would you say it's important for marginalized people to pursue higher education?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I mean, I think it's probably the reasons you brought up earlier, which is, there's not enough of us in the academy and that's problematic. We have so much contextual and experiential knowledge to bring to the table, and systems are not going to change unless we are at the table and suggesting different things. Because clearly, what is being suggested isn't working right now, because it continues to be an issue, right. So the reason why we even feel imposter syndrome is because we see all of our professors and they're all white males or non people of color often. It's hard, I remember when I was teaching at Chapman, I had a few students who was like, "You are my only Latina professor I've ever seen, heard of." Then you realize that was a thing, almost like they were very shocked and the fact that I even had some of them for two classes, they were like, "Oh my gosh, I have a Latina professor for two classes. This is probably the most diverse it's going to get when I'm in college," in terms of who's teaching.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I think Latinas are the most under represented in higher education in the professor level. Well, it's just the history of it. We just haven't been here the... We have been here a long time when Mexico was part of the US, but we just haven't had the opportunities to actually be here, right. Actually go through the systems up higher and that. Because they weren't created for us.
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
In the past we've had to fight our way into the academy to begin with, and now we're seeing more opportunities for that and people stepping up to that and going through the process of, just all of the higher ed levels that you can go through. Yeah, it's a... There's a lot there, I think it's also to say we should all pursue this and we should all aim for this, because I realize that some people just don't feel like that's a card or whatever. But I would challenge a lot of people to actually to think about... Even when they do have that inkling of like, "I really feel like I should be doing this, but that's going to be so uncomfortable and scary and..." Or not even being aware that that's what they're feeling but just being like, "It's okay, I don't think I want that." Cutting yourself out from the race before you even start, because of all those thoughts about real potential and what can do and cannot do with your life.
Amena Brown:
That's so powerful and I... It makes me... It's inspiring to me, because I'm thinking there are so many... If I think about it in some things that I've had negative connotations coming out of higher education, and some of the things that were written there, a lot of... For example, racist policy, racist ideas and thoughts came out of racist people having access to education and being able to write these academic thoughts and papers, right. And so to me, thinking about what you're saying, and over time that we're going to see more and more people of color, women of color, more marginalized people being represented there. That means, even education will shift, overall, right. The ways that those dissertations and papers and studies are getting written. All those things then shift, which does change society and change culture and in some ways, changes policy, has some influence more...
Amena Brown:
It's huge influence to be just teaching a room full of college students, because you're teaching people that are going to go out into the world and lead in so many ways. And even more than that, people that have access to higher education can really make an impact in some ways. I mean, would you say that's also true?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Definitely. I think that... One of the things that I often talk about is how I didn't become professor, even though that was the trajectory set out for me. I'm part of that... I mean, I'll get into it later. But part of that was also realizing that the academy is still very exclusive or just very... It would've just been basically a constant daily battle to have to justify my existence there, making sure that... And just all that it takes to be in a very oppressive and racist environment. And at the end of the day, I was just like, "I'm good. I don't really need to fight this fight." I know that's the fight to fight, but I just didn't feel called to do that, I didn't feel like I wanted that to be a... And I knew that, knowing myself, it would've been really hard to be quiet sometimes, and you got to be quiet sometimes. And I just knew I would just die to myself a little bit, each time I didn't say something. And it was just too much at that time.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And I was just like, " I don't think I really want this right now." And honestly, I just had a passion for working with first generation students from working class backgrounds, and unfortunately college is not often... If you're teaching a room full of students like that or a room full of students, maybe 10 to 15% of them will be that population. But that's what really brings me life, and I was just like, "I don't know that I want to sacrifice for the rest of these students in here who are going to be fine, with or without me, when I could really be pouring into this specific population of students."
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Which is what I really... I found myself wanting to do.
Amena Brown:
Even in the example you just gave, you were able to use that influence, even passed the classroom. That there are all these different ways that that can work out, which I think is so powerful. I wanted to ask you also, for people who are on the fence about pursuing higher ed, whether that's a masters for them or a PhD. I actually applied for my MFA when I first got out of school, not really out of inspiration purposes, but just like, "Maybe that'll buy me some time to figure out what I'm supposed to do." But this was what? 2002, when I was graduating college, so at that time, spoken word was not welcome in academia. So I sent them all my little spoken word poems and they were like, "No, ma'am. We're trying to see these high coupes, these sonnets, these sestinas. We do not care about your long free verse." Whereas now, there are lots of spoken word poets who get MFAs.
Amena Brown:
But I think many people who get to either... Maybe get to their associates and then they're trying to decide about, do they go further into a bachelors or finish their bachelors. Trying to decide about masters and so on. But think about what ever in their life are the obstacles, whether, like you said, it's money. I know for some of my friends it's been the age they are or maybe the way their family dynamic might be at that point. They might be caring for aging parents, they might have little ones or be working a job and wondering, "How can I work and pursue this dream I have?" What would be the encouragement you would say to people who do have a passion for this, they do want to pursue higher education, they just wonder if they can surpass what may be the challenges or obstacles in front of them. What would you say to them?
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
I mean, I think that there always a way to figure out and find your allies in any space. We've had to do that as women of color specifically, in this country for all of history. So I feel like there's there's always going to be a way for you to create that circle of people who are going to be there for you, supporting you, just encouraging you. And that's really, really important if you're stepping into something that you know is going to require, in lots of ways, challenging, some oppressive systems. And maybe even really using your voice, even during that time to push back a little bit at policies and all that. So definitely setting up a circle of just like minded individuals who are going to support you, who are going to be your cheerleaders and are going to keep you pushing. I think also for me, a big driver was... I think I was always very scared of being in my death bed and being...
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Not to take it super deep and scary, but being like, "I should have really tried that, and I didn't." I don't want to ever say that, I'd rather say, "I tried it and I sucked at it and I failed, but I tried it." And I think that has a lot to do with allowing ourselves to live with fear and the tension of fear, but knowing that God's got our back and we're going to be fine. And we're going to learn from this even if it's not the lesson we want to learn, but we will. Because that's what life is all about, it's always God teaching us those things that we actually needed to learn during this time and not really these academics, knowledgy things. I think, coming out of my PhD program, the biggest lessons I learned were around just my own blocks, mental blocks, mental issues. Just issues that I had rather than content knowledge. I mean, I did have a lot of content knowledge as well, but it was that that I'm carrying with me.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
Even more now, and taking it to the next step in my life. And I think when we stop ourselves from... Especially if you have a really deep desire and you're pretty sure this is not even coming from you anymore, it's like you are supposed to do this, but you're just scared. I mean, there's no other word, you're probably just scared. I think it's just letting go and also realizing like, "Hey, it's going to be scary, it's going to be something that's not going to be predictable. But that's what makes it fun, that's what life's about." And being okay with failure, and I say that as someone who has gone through failure. I know what that's like, I know that it's... On the surface, it might look like I got all these fancy degrees and all these cool stuff, but I've had to go through a lot of failure to get to where I'm at right now. I had to get all them Ds in ninth grade and realize, "I don't think I want this for my life."
Amena Brown:
Right.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And at one point, almost getting kicked out of my PhD program for running my mouth when I shouldn't have. Just things that I learned that was I like, "Wow, I wouldn't have learned this if I wouldn't have pushed myself to my zones of uncomfort." It's really easy sometimes to... I think, to not rock the boat or not change things up. But ultimately, it's your life and you're going to look back at the end of it and you're going to be the one to know really when you tried or when you just took a shortcut, because you didn't want to do that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
And then you rob the next generation of...
Amena Brown:
Come on, you rob the next generation, yes. I hope listen and feel a good pressure.
Alma Zaragoza-Petty:
[crosstalk 00:40:20] Because you didn't want to go through your healing, so...
Amena Brown:
Yes. We hope you feel a weighted blanket sort of pressure to do these things that you're supposed to do with your life. Such good stuff from Dr. Alma Zaragoza-Petty. Make sure you check out Dr. Alma's podcasts, the Red Couch and Prickly Pear Collective. You can find this info and info from previous episodes in the show notes at amenabrown.com/herwithamena. Thanks for listening.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen, for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network, in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.