Amena Brown:
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to a new episode of HER with Amena Brown. We're back in the living room together, and I love when y'all come to the living room, and I also love we have a guest, and we have a guest in the living room with us today, so I want to welcome spoken word poet, writer, model, actor, author of new book The Unfolding: An Invitation to Come Home to Yourself, Arielle Estoria.
Arielle Estoria:
That might have been my favorite intro.
Amena Brown:
That's what you get, Arielle. You get two strong... That's a third one. Three whoops.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes. Oh my goodness. I wish everyone could see this.
Amena Brown:
Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate this.
Arielle Estoria:
Oh my gosh, thank you. I feel like this is just an accumulation of so many years and just having been able to be watching and guided by you, whether you know it or not, so this is is this is a gift. This is a gift.
Amena Brown:
Same watching your work, too. And Arielle, for those of y'all, because Arielle and I'll be talking about stuff that's not y'all business, but now we're recording so we can talk to y'all about things that all y'all business. But one of the things we were talking about prior to the recording that we going to let be y'all business is that Arielle and I should have met many years ago. This is not right, and it's not okay. We have a lot of mutual friends. It's so much Venn diagram in both of our lives.
Arielle Estoria:
We've literally been orbiting, just orbiting around each other, but just never meeting. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
We've decided COVID is to blame. COVID is to blame for that, and I hate it. I feel like I want to blame COVID the way people blamed the devil when I was growing up. I really want to be like, "Wow, wow, y'all are letting COVID use you." That's what I feel right now,
Arielle Estoria:
Right? No, and then on top of it, it's like, "Oh, I never want to demonize it," because just that energy of demonizing things in general, but at the same time, I think life could have been a lot different.
Amena Brown:
Why you do that, COVID?
Arielle Estoria:
We didn't have three, four years of this. I don't know. That's all I'm saying.
Amena Brown:
Why you doing it? But we here now, Arielle, we here now.
Arielle Estoria:
We did it.
Amena Brown:
I'm very glad. I also want to let the audience in on something that's really unfortunate about being a poet, because nine times out of 10, especially if you are a poet performing at events, nine times out of 10, you don't meet other poets there, because they only book us one at a time. Why?
Arielle Estoria:
One at a time and hella spaced out in the day, too. You're like, "Oh, you're the morning one, you're the afternoon one, you're the evening," so we just be rolling up just by ourselves.
Amena Brown:
It's not right.
Arielle Estoria:
Got to make something out it. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
It's not right.
Arielle Estoria:
Literally orbiting, just orbiting.
Amena Brown:
See, so I just want y'all to know, a lot of us fellow poets, unless we live in the same city and come from the same poetry scene, if we don't live in the same city, that people make it hard. Unless you're going to a poetry conference, then you'll see.
Arielle Estoria:
There you go. Yeah. Is that a thing? Are there poetry conferences?
Amena Brown:
There are. I am just learning about this, apparently, that there are poetry conferences. Have I been going to them? Apparently not, so now I'm very starved for meeting other poets because I have wonderful, wonderful poetry community where I live. I know you do, too, but sometimes you want to, especially those of us who are traveling, sometimes...
Arielle Estoria:
[inaudible 00:03:59].
Amena Brown:
Yeah. You want to meet some other people. What's it like in your city? What are you doing there in the community?
Arielle Estoria:
I need links to whatever these conferences and things are.
Amena Brown:
These, yes, we need to talk about that.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
Arielle and I going to figure this out. We going to figure this out, and one day we going to hug each other. It's going to be a time.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes, It's going to be great.
Amena Brown:
It's going to be a time.
Arielle Estoria:
It's going to be great.
Amena Brown:
Okay. I like to describe to my listeners that this podcast space is a living room, because that is the space where I gather with my girlfriends. That's the space where sometimes you need to have a conversation with your girlfriend and you're like, "We can't do this in a restaurant. I really need to be in a home where I can say my things that need to be said, not in a public space." And some of my girlfriends are more fancy with the snacks that they bring.
Arielle Estoria:
Of course.
Amena Brown:
I could get my snack in a gas station and you better be happy about whatever I bring in here, so I want to start with an important question, Arielle. When you are gathering with your girlfriends, your peoples, your homies, your community people that you're very close with them, I want to know, what's the snack? What are you bringing into the space?
Arielle Estoria:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
If you are asked to bring your snack, what is it?
Arielle Estoria:
I am a do the most kind of individual, so we'll start there. If I'm hosting, there will be leftovers. And even of a snack, there's going to be a leftover. I probably will make you take some home. I love a charcuterie.
Amena Brown:
Yes.
Arielle Estoria:
I love a cheese cracker situation, but I'm also going to throw some fruit in there. I'm also going to throw some Marcona almonds with the truffle on it. I'm might even throw in a little something. I don't know how to do things. I am not a nonchalant kind of person. I am all of the chalant. Yeah, if I'm bringing something, then I try to scale back, because obviously that's a lot more work.
But even if I'm bringing something, it's like, oh no, we can't go to Ralph's, which is just a grocery store here in LA, I got to go to Whole Foods because at least I can make a presentation out of me just bringing something, so that's kind of the route I go. Always a charcuterie.
Amena Brown:
I want to say that you had me at truffle, because when you said that, I was like, "Oh, I know the caliber of snack now. Thank you."
Arielle Estoria:
Yes, Truffle almond, and they're shaved down, so all the truffle really gets on the almond. Yeah, that's where we're going. It has to have a truffle moment. That's definitely where I stand.
Amena Brown:
I really like this and I appreciate the much chalant. I appreciate the amount of chalant given to that. I thank you for that, and I feel like we all need a friend who is like you, because sometimes you're missing out on some delicious things of life.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes. And my husband, he's like a, "You're doing too much," and I'm the oldest child, I'm the pastor's kid, so hospitality, whether I want it to be or not, is just in my bones. There's seven, eight of us, so people will be fed. There's just so much in me that can't help it. I'm like, "Yeah, there's two of us, and I did too much. But it's fine. But it's fine."
Amena Brown:
I'm going to commiserate with you and tell you that as a cook, I am a person who it's like, "I don't know how to cook for less than 20 people."
Arielle Estoria:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
It's like I make an individual thing for myself, or it's 20 people. Don't ask me about five. Don't ask me about 17. I don't know. But it's like, I made one pudding cup for myself or it's 20 people.
Arielle Estoria:
Or enough to feed everyone in my apartment complex.
Amena Brown:
And to me, I'm with you. This is also southern Black woman things for me, too, that the worst offense is that you invited someone to your home for food and you ran out of food, so to me, to have an over-abundance of food means what? People pack up and take leftovers with them, there's more to share. I don't see where the error is there, but there's an error in me making food for two people and seven people showed up, and now we don't have enough food. That's really the biggest fear that I have in hosting people.
Arielle Estoria:
Literally. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that struggle. You probably answer this question all the time, but I'm also curious what you bring.
Amena Brown:
It depends on the mood and it probably depends on the friend. It depends on the mood and the friend, the point of our visit. I feel if we are both tired, I'm a hummus girl. I am a good hummus girl, though.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
This is a hummus that I have to go maybe to Whole Foods and get. It's a brand that I need to really have. There's a brand called Roots Hummus here in the southeast, and I don't play games about that hummus. There's only two grocery stores I know of that sell that thing.
Arielle Estoria:
Whoa. Okay.
Amena Brown:
And I'm going there so I'm okay. I'm a hummus girl. I probably already have three of them in the fridge. I take one and bring it to your home. But if we're celebratory, then I too to get involved in some charcuterie. But I'm going to tell you right now, it's going to be very ugly, because I'm a terribly not visual person, so if the people were looking for a Instagram worthy charcuterie, I'm more in the ugly, delicious category of charcuterie.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes. We love an ugly and delicious. We do.
Amena Brown:
Wow. That looks terrible. But it's delicious. That's really me where I'm at right now. In my broke days, I have been a person who's like herein, I have a chocolate bar that I broke two squares off of. Maybe I have a bell pepper that I tried slicing a little bit of. And here's a bag of tortilla chips that I ate some late last night and I put a clip on it, and I have arrived to your home.
Arielle Estoria:
Yep. Yes. Yes. All of the layers.
Amena Brown:
Have been that person.
Arielle Estoria:
All of that.
Amena Brown:
I feel of that snacks are very important. I want to also ask you, do you have a favorite snack? Is there a snack that you're like, "This a must have for me?"
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah. I feel like I will always come back to a chips and salsa. I feel like for some reason, it's always going to hit. There's just something about it where you're like, "Oh, I'm not super hungry, but I'm trying to snack." And you just grab it. And it's probably not all salsas. I'm a chunky salsa girl in the mild range is where I sit.
Amena Brown:
I like it. I like it.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes. I feel like a chips and salsa is kind of where I'm always going to go. I love an almond anytime, really, I have a wide variety of almond loves. But also, I have a sister who's allergic to nuts, so I'm not about to bring that. That's almost like my thing. I know that they can have a nut that they can be around those. If not, then I'm steering clear, but I will always have them in my home, so they are in accessibility and we can add it to the mix.
But chips and salsa, for sure. I think that's the first one. And I love a popcorn. I love a popcorn. Love a popcorn. I'll bring a bag of, is it Annie's? I think, yeah. I'll bring a bag of popcorn or I'll make popcorn. I grew up kernels on the stove. Do not give me a machine.
Amena Brown:
Okay, okay.
Arielle Estoria:
Melt the butter, shift it, shake it, salt, shift it, shake it. I love a good kettle popcorn. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
When you said on the stove. I was like, "Come on. Come on, Arielle, the people need it."
Arielle Estoria:
It has to be on the stove.
Amena Brown:
The people need it.
Arielle Estoria:
I've done the machines. It doesn't taste the same. It does not taste the same, and you can't convince me that it does.
Amena Brown:
No, the people need it.
Arielle Estoria:
I love a stove popcorn.
Amena Brown:
I'm here for everything about this. Okay. I want to talk about your poet origin story, because we are going to get into the book. I'll say the title again for you listeners. The Unfolding: An Invitation to Come Home to Yourself. And I'm selfishly asking this because I'm just curious and want to know, but was there a moment that you knew you wanted to write poetry? And was there a moment you knew you then also wanted to perform it? Because for those of us who perform poetry, those two moments are not always the same.
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah.
Amena Brown:
What would you say is your origin story there?
Arielle Estoria:
I would say that I didn't have that I knew I wanted to write moment. I always wrote, I didn't know how to process, to think, to feel without doing that, so that just was a very natural thing I had to do, if that makes sense. And not out of like, "Oh, poetry was keeping me captive," but I needed that. And in some cases, it needed me, so writing was always like, "Yeah, I do this. Yeah, this is how I heal. Yeah, this is who I am."
It was the performing that definitely came a lot later. My performing background is theater, first and foremost, so before I was writing so poems that I would say out loud, I was writing plays and short stories and monologues and things like that that just were in this very poetic way. And it wasn't until college where I had someone say, "That was spoken word." And I'm like, "No, that was a monologue," that I realized that they were actually really connected and I was already doing it without knowing that I was doing that.
The performing came through theater, and I have always been an on stage kind of person. And I shut down a lot of that just because of my upbringing, and a lot of that is in the book as well, but I shut down a lot of it in a sense of this is not glorifying to God. You can't be an artist and creative unless it just is scripture, scripture, scripture, God, God, God, and so I kind of shied away with doing that thing, because I was like, "Oh, I can't do this. This is glorifying to me, not to the Lord." Which I've done a lot of that and it's my profession now. And so that's where my origin for performing and writing came from.
And then it wasn't until college where I'm into my psych degree thinking that I'm about to work at a university and be in the student development world, that I was like, "Maybe I should actually give this more of a try." And it had been all throughout college of the performing aspect, now realizing through theater, "Okay, this is actually a whole nother creative realm that I have not fully tapped into." And I went to an arts high school. Again, theater, all of it was theater and writing, so I was kind of teetering on that world.
And then spoken word specifically came in college, and I competed for two years on a slam team, and then was president of our poetry club, and then carried that out to conferences and things like that. It all snowballed together, but the writing had always been the core of everything.
Amena Brown:
I love that. Tell me, who are some of your favorite poets?
Arielle Estoria:
One of them that I will probably always say is my coach. His name is Brian. His poetry name is Superb or Super B, and he has this one poem, and it will be the thing that haunts me in the most beautiful way, forever and ever, and he ties the beginning of his poem to the end of poem, but the way he does it is just every person, every detail connects back and then circles right back around. And it is about basically death in his grandma. And it's just stunning. He is a storyteller that I just love his heart, I love his personhood, and I'll always go back to.
Kind of my OG in awe people that I think will carry with me forever is Sarah and Phil Kaye. They're still on YouTube. Their poem about each other and Why They'll Never Date is one of my favorites. Their poem about When Love Finds You is one of my favorite. And then Sarah Kay on her own is also a poet who I think the first spoken word in a sense with her Ted Talk with "A Poem to my Daughter," that was the first poem I was like, "Let me try to write a version of this myself." And they're both based in New York City.
And then I'm getting more into... Sadly, I realized a lot of, besides Maya Angelou, I didn't grow up with learning or knowing about a lot of Black poets, so I'm coming back into that space. Ntozake Shange, who's a poet, but then also a playwright. I'm really getting back into her work. Warsan Shire, and I hope I'm saying their name right, but they're just this floating entity that's like there and not there. But then when you read their work, you're like, "What? Who is this? Where did this come from?" And if you're not familiar with them, Beyonce had her, I think, in Lemonade.
Amena Brown:
Yes. Yes indeed. Yes, indeed.
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah, those are the ones that come to mind now. I think every time I answer that question, it's different except for the Phil and Sarah, Kay, and then my coach, Brian. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
Oh, I love that. Yeah. I'm not going to lie, Warsan and Lemonade, specifically watching the film Lemonade, not knowing at first that was Warsan Shire's work that we're hearing. I literally watched it the first time and thought, "If this is Beyonce writing spoken word for the first time," I really contemplated, Arielle. I was like, "Maybe this isn't the career for me. Maybe this isn't." Because if Beyonce could just sit down randomly mad as hell at her husband and write this... I've been trying a long time, and for Beyonce to try one time and it sounds like that,
Arielle Estoria:
And then be like, yeah.
Amena Brown:
The first time watching it through, I was like, "I don't know." I really questioned my career choices. And then I went on Twitter and everybody was like, "Oh my God, we're so excited, Warsan." And I said, "Woo, okay, all right. Okay. Because, Beyonce, don't do me. Don't do me. Don't show up and you ain't been writing poems and now you writing a poem and it sound like that." But when I saw Warsan Shire her name, I said, "Ooh, I got a chance."
Arielle Estoria:
Oh, thank God.
Amena Brown:
There's room for me. There's room for me. Okay.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
Okay.
Arielle Estoria:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I want more of them. She knows she's a gift. They know they're a gift. I'm like, "Where are you? Are you in London?" I need to know where you are, what you're doing.
Amena Brown:
It's giving Sade. I think Warsan Shire gives us the poet's version of Sade. It's like, Warsan, speaking out a book, a thing that Warsan has done, and then Warsan just dissipate into their personal life, and I feel like that's a Sade vibe, because Sade be like, "Ah, Soldier of Love," and then just dissipates into her personal life. She doesn't care. Sade doesn't care. Y'all wanted to interview, y'all want to know what I'm doing. It doesn't matter. When I feel like putting an album out, I do it and then I tour and then I disappear into the stratosphere, and I feel that's a Warsan vibe.
Arielle Estoria:
I need more of that.
Amena Brown:
I feel that's a Warsan vibe, so shout out to Warsan Shire for giving us hope that we too could be poets.
Arielle Estoria:
Thank you.
Amena Brown:
Okay. I want to ask about another favorite. Are you a person that watches reality TV show? Do you watch the genre of reality TV?
Arielle Estoria:
Okay.
Amena Brown:
And if you do, do you have a favorite that you could share with us?
Arielle Estoria:
Sure. Love is Blind is the only... No, I am not. I don't like reality TV. I never liked reality. I'm also an Enneagram 4 so I don't do well with this level, especially when it comes to television, which I think is creating... As an actor too, I'm like, "That's money there. That's movement. That's creativity," so whenever it's just like, "I'm there to binge trashy stuff," my heart's like, "I can't, can't function."
But thank you to COVID, I did fall for The Love Is Blind situation, and I watched all seasons up until the most recent, and the most recent reminded me, "This is reality TV, and I don't do that shit." I was like, "And I'm done, and that's a wrap." I tried The Circle because my sisters are obsessed with it. Couldn't. We watched one season of Too Hot to Handle. Couldn't. Yeah, even the spinoff of Love Is Blind, I think I watched one episode. The Ultimatum.
Amena Brown:
Oh, that's right.
Arielle Estoria:
I watched one episode of the Ultimatum. I said, "Absolutely not. I can't, I cannot." Love Is Blind is the only one. And I went through years of everyone around me just living and breathing The Bachelor. And I said, "I can't. I would rather sit in my room, eat peanut butter and watch reruns of Psych." And that's a lot of what I did, while my whole hall had parties for The Bachelor. I said, "I'm not doing this."
Love Is Blind has been the only one. And I only really watched it for Lauren and Cameron. And then I got sucked in, and now I'm out.
Amena Brown:
I have to agree with you here about Love is Blind. Shout out to Lauren and Cameron, because I feel like if that had not been the first season, because I think we're three seasons now. I feel like if the seasons had been switched around and Lauren and Cameron season had been two or three, I would never have watched it. It was something about their season that really made you believe in the format, which then took me into the second season.
But by the time it got to this one, I was like, "Oh, that's right. This don't work." But I'm glad it worked for Lauren and Cameron. Shout out to them.
Arielle Estoria:
For them, it worked. We love them. And I was like, "She teases." She posted something that was like, "Were you wearing [inaudible 00:23:24] stuff?" And I think I commented, I was like, "Come back on this show and host it." The hosts are a whole different subject. I'm just like, "And it's not an experiment anymore. It's only an experiment if you do it the one time. Now, people know the outcome and they know they can grow a following. They can get a podcast, they can boo boo." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not. I can't do this anymore."
Amena Brown:
You were told not one lie.
Arielle Estoria:
I did like the first two seasons, though.
Amena Brown:
They were so great. The first two seasons were really wonderful.
Arielle Estoria:
They were so great.
Amena Brown:
Something about this last season had me like, "Oh, that's right. This is feeling terrible." But I'm not going to lie, listeners, I'll be talking trash, and when season four come on, I'm going to probably watch it anyways, so don't worry, Arielle. Don't you worry, girl. I'm going to probably watch it and just be messaging you. "You don't have to watch, but let me tell you."
Arielle Estoria:
Even this last season, I was like, "I'm done. Two seasons, I'm good." But my sister, she got posting on Instagram and now I'm like, "Now I need context. Dang it." Then I watched and then I sucked my husband in, and at the end of it, we were like, "We can't get this back."
Amena Brown:
Can't get none of that time back.
Arielle Estoria:
We can't undo it. And you want to binge it because you need to know. All of it is just wired for addiction and I hate it.
Amena Brown:
That's not a lie. That's not a lie. Okay. I want to talk to you about your book process, because I'm always curious about how book ideas arrive to authors. How did the idea for Unfolding come to you?
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah, yeah. In 2018, actually, there was this weird sweep of publishers reaching out, honestly, I think to people with Instagram followings. I think that's completely what it was. They don't really know that I could write, but they're just like, "You post a graphic, I think you are it." And so in 2018, I just said no to four different publisher, because I didn't have it.
And I'm very much so, if an idea is nested, I can birth it. I see it, I start dreaming about it, I'm working on content tomorrow for the book, just like Q and A, reading some quotes and also a new poem I wrote called Prayer for the Church Girl. And I can see all of it in my head. I can see the visuals, I can see the dancers, I can see everything. For this, when they were asking, I was like, "I can't envision any of this." And that really sat in my spirit of, "I don't think it's time yet." I said no to every single one of them.
And then a few months later, I met my now literary agent, and she was the first person to say, "You don't have to write a book right now. If that's not in your spirit, you don't have to do that," so I released it. And then a year later, a whole lot of things happened. I got engaged to a person that was not a lot of people's first choice, and my faith started starting to do this unravel thing.
Everyone talks about deconstructing. I don't like that term. I also think that negates a lot of the Black experience. And so for me it was just like, this word feels so heavy and so just destructive. And I was like, this doesn't feel like me. And also at the same time, I don't feel like I'm becoming this new person. I just feel like I'm folding back these layers, hence The Unfolding.
And then it came time where I just kept spilling poem after poem and experience after experience. And a year later, then another publisher came, reached back out. But this time, I knew The Unfolding. I had written it in my notes a year or two before that. I was like, "Oh, this might be a new spoken word album." I didn't know what it was, but just The Unfolding. And I just put that in my notes. And then eventually, the book started to form and I was like, "Oh, the book is called... Okay, great."
I don't know how your creative process comes, but sometimes you get these downloads, these dumps, these inklings, whatever you want to call it, and you don't know where they go. You don't know what it could be for, or you do, but there's some, like the title, I didn't know what it was going to be until those poems started to form. And then I called that process The Unfolding, and then pitched it, and then started writing more consecrated within that storyline.
Obviously working with a publisher, getting notes and getting feedback from a third person. This is my first under a publisher book. My first two were just poetry. It was with other people, it was self-published, but having a little bit more hands in the kitchen, as I like to say, definitely helped with creating this really full and really beautiful thing. Even though I had the initial idea, I knew what the title was going to be when it came time for that, all of that, I knew what the vibes and the visuals were for. And then all of that came together within the last two and a half years.
I signed the contract in October of 2019, and I've been writing it up until, honestly, in the middle of last year is its final notes, and then recorded the audiobook in December, and then she's out in March.
Amena Brown:
Nice. Oh my goodness. Listeners, as you are hearing this, Arielle's book is out there where you can get it in your hands if you're a person that needs that physical book that you can turn the pages to. You can also hear the audio, which I think is going to be really gorgeous because your voice is such an important part, not just in the figurative sense of voice, but your literal sound of your voice is so important to your work, so I think it's going to be dope.
You can engage this way. You can get it on your Kindle or your iPad or whatever your tablet situation. You have all sorts of things, so if you didn't click on the link already, we need you to do it right now. Okay. This is what I want to know, Arielle. When you were writing, in general, do you find yourself a person that writes to music? And if so, did you find yourself feeling inspired by any particular musical artists or genres of music while you were working on the book?
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah, I tend to always write to instrumental music. I tend to avoid words. Some artists, some creatives can, and I find this is a lot of screenwriters and things like that, they can write things and it come from music. But I'm also like, that doesn't get in as messy of a detail as it does with copyright and stuff, so I really try not to have words. That way, I'm not just typing out someone's lyrics, subconsciously thinking it's a poem.
I write to instrumental music, and that's that instrumental music that really builds. I love people's names I can't pronounce. They're probably German composers. They're probably from some other space. I have a playlist usually that I rotate through, and I'll write through that space. And then specifically, there is a song by an artist, a Canadian artist, his name is Luca Fogale. And it was like funny, I'm in the process of writing already. I have the title and then my friend Ruth D. Lindsay, she posts this song called The Unfolding by Luca Fogale. And I was like, "Okay, wild."
And I listen to it and I just start weeping because all of it is literally what I'm experiencing and also writing. And some of the lyrics are just like, "You're not breaking, you're unfolding. You are not broken, you are not breaking, you are unfolding. And he himself comes from somewhat of a faith background, and so all of it just was so timely, and so that specific song, in some spaces of editing and writing, I just listened to that over and over and over again. And I do quote him in the book. That's just a specific song.
But then most instrumental. I love Amanda Lindsey Cook instrumental. I love a real strong instrumental Sleeping at Last. Those are all people that give me a vibe, give me a feel. And I'll usually get sparked or creatively ignited by that.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. I also love what you said earlier about waiting until you felt like you had something to say in this book or waiting for the idea to arrive to you. And I do think it's interesting, I hear this a lot among us as writers and authors, people from various and sundry corners of the business and life coming to you like, "Oh, it's time. It's time for a book."And sometimes the idea isn't there, or the place inside your own soul where you're ready to write about whatever the story is or where you know what the idea is.
And I just really wanted to say, I think that is an important word for all of us listeners here, to wait for the idea to say. And I think that applies to books, but I think it applies to a lot of creative work that people can come into your life and say, "Oh, it's time. The next stage of your career, you need to do blank," whatever that is. It's a book, it's an album, it's a whatever it is. And really not letting that be the pressure, but giving yourself the space to see what the poem, the book, the album actually wants to be.
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah. And also knowing that "it's time" doesn't mean now. We've associated it's time, so in this moment, but it's time could be a very wide range. That could be a year, that could be a few months, but just know that you're grounding and centering and preparing yourself for that time. But "it's time" doesn't mean now. I knew there was a book. I felt that there was something, but I just knew timing wise, and my husband was always like, "Time's a construct." He just goes on a whole thing.
But in a sense, I'm like, "Actually, I do kind of see that," because we put ourselves in these constraints when time is into the conversation. But I think, one, I believe in orchestration, and I believe in divine timing. I believe in things happening in synchronous ways. We think it's time. I think we can release ourselves from thinking that means right now in this breath.
I think that means when that it's time, not warnings, but reminders or thoughts come up, I think using that as more of a space of, "All right, I clearly need to start preparing myself for something or to be open to the idea." I think once I'm open to something, then it's like, you see a car that you buy, and you start seeing it everywhere. I think similarly, ideas and creative processes is similar for me in a sense of, "Ooh, once I start that, okay, I'm putting it in there. Do what you want with it, God. Do what You want with it."
That's when I start to be like, "Oh, look at that idea. Okay, put it and store it," but know that it's time doesn't mean right now in this moment, and you can release yourself, I think, from that idea.
Amena Brown:
Yeah. Oh, that's so good, just to give your creative self the patience and give the ideas the patience. I think I was just talking with a girlfriend of mine and I was saying we have to try to be patient with the ideas. I know you've experienced this as a poet, too. I have some poems that like, "Ooh, that came quickly." And then I have some that they just take months to write. They take years to write. And it doesn't matter how many times I try to rush a little two lines at the end so I can finish it. The poem will be like, "I'm not done. Let me do what I'm doing here. Let me have my say the way I want to, not the way you want me to."
And I think that is a challenge of creative work, but also, it's what draws us back, because that's the journey of getting to see what the ideas want to be, so I think that's lovely. Okay. I want to ask you, what was your favorite thing about this book? It could be about the process of writing it. It could be about you now being able to look at the whole thing now that it's written. What's your favorite thing?
Arielle Estoria:
My favorite part of the process was definitely the audiobook. I think being a spoken word poet, it just was so exciting. And they gave me this whole long preparation and they're like, "It's a lot of sitting, it's a lot of speaking." And it was kind of scary at first, but then I was like, "This is my wheelhouse, this is my arena." And I had a director in my ear, and she was just so lovely and guiding, as well. And we finished in a day and three hours, I think. It went so fast.
But I think getting to that part, and then also reading my acknowledgements out loud. Again, I'm an emotive, I'm a sensitive person, so crying is not necessarily I'm sad. It's just like, I'm processing, I'm feeling, I'm happy, it can be a lot of different things. I did the whole book and I was like, "Okay, I didn't cry." And my best friend who's also photographer, she was like, "I was kind of expecting that you would." And then we get to the last day, and I'm reading who I'm thanking for guiding me, for knowing me before a book even comes out, before a book deal, for being part of the process, whether they know it or not. And that part is what made me really emotional.
I think I just kind of saw this wave and these years of... I knew I would be a creative, I knew I would be a writer. I just never fully envisioned what that would entail and what that could fully look like, so being in that space was just this overwhelming gush of gratitude, and so that's where I ended up crying. And I think that audiobook was definitely... It was almost like that part where you're like, the adrenaline after you give birth and people are like, "Oh my God, a baby, look what I did." And you forget the pain, you forget how much time. You forget all those things. That's what I've been told.
It was like that moment where I was just like, "Look at this beautiful thing. I birthed it out." I was like, "Oh, I miss it. I want to do it again. I want to have this moment again." I think the audiobook was also my final moment where I was like, "Oh, this is my last intimate moment with my book. Just me and her." I guess I'll call her her. Just me and her. And it was that last moment of, "Okay, I'm about to release you. You're allowed to be out in the world." I think that was a really beautiful moment.
And I loved the process of writing it in different ways. I went outside a lot, as much as I could, and I enjoyed that. But I think the audiobook makes me want to do it all over again. Yeah.
Amena Brown:
Oh yeah. I love that. I love that. I love about the book that it is this combination of non-fiction and poetry together, so I really enjoyed that mix of getting a chance to know some of the... Sometimes it's the background connected to how a poem got written. You also are taking us through the phases that happened in The Unfolding, which I thought was such a beautiful way to think about that, because I think, especially in different developmental stages of life, I think we think of that as far as childhood development, but I don't think we think about it as much as the developmental phases that we experience as adults.
And sometimes we are experiencing this shift of who we thought we were going to be, and maybe now, that's a different something. Or the family of origin that we're from, and maybe now we realize some things we believe or want to do in life or want to be that are different than maybe we were raised to be. And there are a lot of those shifts.
It's not that what you were giving us in the book reminded me of the stages of grief, but in the way that when you're grieving, the stages of grief give you a context as to, "Where am I in the process?" even though it isn't a linear thing. And I think in The Unfolding, the phases you're giving us there in the book, give us a way to say, "Okay, I'm here. I see myself at this portion of that, and I may experience these phases at different times." Would you say that the process of unfolding has not felt linear to you, as well?
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah, not at all. And I say in the book, I was like, "Do not hold this to being a linear thing." I think we discount any stage of any part of life when we view it and think we're experiencing it linearly. And I think that's our human need to control. I think that's our human need to know what's happening and know what's going to come next. There's a lot of safety in that, especially for trauma healing and things like that.
But also, to know that something is cyclical, I think there's peace there. And knowing that, one, I'm not going to stay here the whole time, but two, I could come back to this point. And when we come back to it, we learn a little bit more that time around. It definitely is cyclical. And even as I'm sitting it two, three years now, there's little parts of me that are still coming back to part one. I get to the point where I've mended in and I've returned, and now I'm all the way back at the beginning where I say it's the awakening. I feel like I'm realizing and seeing new things.
And especially now as I'm in my space of faith, I'm just like, "I am tired of hearing from white people." That's just kind of like where I'm at in my space, and so I'm trying to immerse myself in Black authors, in Black theology, in Black liberation conversation. I feel like I'm just awakening all over again. I think giving yourself grace in that space, to know that you could get here again, you could go backwards, you could be on the next level of eclipsing while you're in the middle of illuminating, and all of it is just part of it. It's all part of it.
And there's no right or wrong. There's no good or bad. That's the unfolding, that's where we're at. We're experiencing all of it and what it means to be human and changing, growing.
Amena Brown:
I love it. I love it so much. The way Arielle trying to get me in my tear ducts, y'all. She trying to get me right here in my tear ducts. Arielle, you are now going to have this experience of having written this book, and now, the book going into the hands of people reading it, some who are very familiar with your work, some who will be meeting your work for the first time. What do you hope the reader walks away with? If they have their physical book and they close the end of it, they get to the end of their audiobook recording, they get to that part of the ebook where it gives you other links to the author and all that, what do you hope the reader is gaining from the book when they get to the end?
Arielle Estoria:
Yeah. I think first and foremost, I hope that I'm taken out of it. I think just constantly, as an artist, as a creative, you're only left with, "Wow, that was so cool of her," or, "I love X, Y and Z of her," or, "That was great." I feel like then I didn't do what I was supposed to do in there. And each of the phases end in reflection questions, specifically so that I'm taken out of it. I teach yoga and I've been saying in my classes, I'm like, "I am a guide, but you are the teacher. You know your body more than anyone knows your body. You know what feels good, you know what comes next. I'm just here to guide what you already know."
And I think I'm trying to do that with the book, as well. I think I'm calling it The Unfolding, but you could have called it something entirely different for the last five years. We're just creating another name for it. I hope that first and foremost, I'm taken out of it.
And then I think, secondly, there's this exhale of like, "Okay, I'm not alone. Okay, I'm not crazy in this. Okay, there's solidarity, and that I can trust myself in this process of moving forward." I think the greatest works sometimes are the works we read and we're like, "I knew this. I knew this about myself," or, "I knew this was happening," or "I had that thought and I didn't know how to execute it the way I wanted to."
And then there's the books and the things we read that challenge and bring up new ideas, so I hope there's a mix of both. Some of trusting yourself and then also some of like, "Okay, I didn't know that or I didn't expect that. And now I can put that in that space for myself." And I hope it's something you can pick back up, whether it's just the poems or whether it's the reflection questions to journal, and your own thought process and your own healing.
Those are kind of the goals. And maybe a few tears, because I hope that this heals a little bit. I hope that it brings about healing and orchestrates healing that maybe you're already navigating, as well. I think those are my main things in my heart in terms of what I hope people get from it.
Amena Brown:
I love that. Tell the people how they can follow you, how they can stay connected to your work. And also tell the people how they can buy this book. How they can buy five copies. That's what we want. Five copies at a time. Five copies. Because if you buy five copies, the thing is, you've always got one for yourself. And then when people come over sometimes, if you got a physical book, they'd be like, "Oh my gosh, I always wanted," and now you got a extra one. You could give it to them for gifts. Random birthday parties. You have a lot of things you could do with five copies. Where can they follow you and buy five copies of the book, Arielle?
Arielle Estoria:
You can go to my website, which is just my name, Arielle with two Ls and E, Estoria, E-S-T-O-R-I-A.com. You can buy the book through there. I list a few different spaces like Bookshop, but then also if you want to support Black owned, there's Reparations Bookstore on there, as well. If you're local, go into a local bookstore and purchase from there. Go to a physical space. I still believe in physical books. I still believe in physical book spaces, so if you can walk into your Vroman's or something physically, then please do that, as well.
And then everything social media wise is also my name, Arielle Estoria. Instagram, it's kind of like you might as well be emailing me at the same time, so I respond to DMs. I don't have someone controlling my Instagram. People are always very shocked by that. And I'm like, "It's still me." I respond to your DMs. Please message me. Please send me pictures of you reading and engaging. Please let me know how this process is for you and with you. And also just free to hang out with me over there.
Amena Brown:
Arielle, thank you so much for doing this.
Arielle Estoria:
Thank you.
Amena Brown:
It was a wonderful excuse to get a chance to at least e-meet you, and one of these days y'all, me and Arielle are going to get this hug. I'm telling y'all right now, you going to get this hug and it's going to be great. Thank you for joining me.
Arielle Estoria:
It's going to be great. Thank you for having me.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.