Amena Brown:
Y'all know what time it is. I really do not even need to say what this episode is about because I hope if you have been listening to HER with Amena Brown, you know that it's time to talk best television of 2023 and that there's only one guest. Is she even a guest still? Is it just now we are at the podcast living room point where Kelundra would just be like, "Girl, I'll be there," and just open up the door and just get snacks. Please welcome again, playwright, theater critic, journalist, Kelundra Smith.
Kelundra Smith:
Yay. I'm so happy to be here. This is one of my favorite things every year.
Amena Brown:
You know what I realized? You and my friend Kaitlin, like most guests, y'all have been the guest the most times of this whole podcast. Just y'all too, multiple times. Because I think you've been here three times, I think she's been here three times now. You might be four. I can't really remember off the top of my head right now. We at three or four right now, Kelundra, so thank you.
Kelundra Smith:
I think it's four, Amena, and it's an honor. I would come back every time. You know I adore you, so yes.
Amena Brown:
We have us a good time. So this is what we're going to do, Kelundra and I are going to talk as long as we can humanly possible, and then whatever we cannot fit into this episode is going to go on a bonus episode for all my Patreon people. Okay. Kelundra, first of all, I want to give a little context to this year of television because this has been a wild time. This has been a wild time. We had a writer strike that lasted five months of the year. SAG-AFTRA, still striking right now, still has not ascertained the deal that they deserve. So we hold space for knowing all of the artists that we know that have been affected by this, and that affects some of what we're talking about as far as how television unfolded this year was very unique.
I mean, you and I first started doing this when we were in that first year of the pandemic almost, where we were like, "Now we all need our TV because we home now," and this year, to me, in a certain way took me back to that, but in a different way that we were sort of watching how important television is, how important that storytelling is, and we want writers and actors to be paid fairly. So what are your thoughts in thinking about the year closing that we finally see the writers of WGA get the deal that they were fighting for and still waiting for the actors? How has that been for you in the world where you are as a writer?
Kelundra Smith:
I'll say this: Several things come to mind. One is I 100% share that sentiment holding so much space for the people who have completely had their lives upended by these strikes, because the thing about being a working artist for so many people is that the instability makes it to where you are so often living from paycheck to paycheck. So very, very few people can afford to go five-plus months without a paycheck, and one of the things that has been on my heart is that there are artists who are leaving the industry all together because it's like, "I can't afford the financial havoc and chaos that these negotiations and things cause on my life when they happen," because the writers got their deal, but that deal only stands for three years and then we'll be right back here. And the SAG-AFTRA strike at this point is still going on, and then IATSE has their negotiations next year, and IATSE is crew, not just for television and film, but also Broadway. So IATSE don't get what they want-
Amena Brown:
Everything going to be going dark. Some things is going dark, period.
Kelundra Smith:
It's time to go back to the symphony. You will have ballet and orchestras. Which then brings me back to something that has been also an interesting development of these strikes, which is that theaters have in some ways benefited because talent that had gone to television and film because it was more lucrative, have returned back to the theater because the Actor's Equity, Dramatist Guild and all of those negotiations happened during the pandemic and right before. So they're able to work in theater. So there are some names that you're able to see doing productions all across the country that you would not have seen prior to. You're also seeing small independent film festivals benefit from talent, not being able to go and do the major motion picture promotion things.
For the few productions that can get that special permission rate waiver from SAG-AFTRA or for people who have worked on short films, you're seeing more of that. So for example, in Rome, Georgia, they have an international film festival every year, and Ethan Hawke decided to premiere one of his films there because he can't necessarily take it to a Cannes or to a Tribeca, but it can go to Rome, Georgia. it's one of those things where there's a leveling of the playing field that's happening in some ways, but also there's... This is all necessary to me because I'm all passionate about working people getting what they deserve, and so that's the topic of my play, The Wash. Yeah, that's what I got to say about that.
Amena Brown:
Okay. Speaking of Kelundra's play, The Wash, can you catch the listeners up? In the last year, you have had a lot of wonderful professional development things that have happened. Can you catch us up on how are the plays out here doing? How is the journalism out here? Catch us up on what's been happening with you.
Kelundra Smith:
This has been a really beautiful year. It's so crazy. So I will tell you something, Amena and listeners. I went to New Orleans in February to... It was partially to do some research for a work trip and part of it was just because... You know how you feel spiritually like you need to go somewhere? So I always say for some reason, Louisiana and Mississippi, the land memory in those places is very, very strong for me. So whenever I set foot in those places, very emotional for some reason. And mind you, I'm a daughter of Georgia, so I don't understand what it is about Louisiana and Mississippi, but it's instant tears. I don't know why. Anyway. I'm in this bookstore called Baldwin & Co. Books. If you are in New Orleans, check them out. Black-owned bookstore. So I'm in Baldwin & Company, and then I had gone to this shop that was... I love to walk when I explore cities. And so I had walked all the way to this shop that was near the French Quarter, and I am forgetting the name of the shop, but this woman read my face when I went into the shop and she said, "I see airplanes flying all around your head."
Amena Brown:
Oh, Kelundra!
Kelundra Smith:
Yeah, that's what she said. And I have literally been on a plane at least twice a month since.
Amena Brown:
Wow. That gave me chills, Kelundra. Wow.
Kelundra Smith:
And she told me it wasn't going to stop for a while. So I was just like, "All right, I'm ready. God grow me into who I need to be." So I have had a beautiful year, the highlights being that my play, The Wash, which is inspired by the Atlanta washerwoman's strike of 1881, is going to have its world premiere in Atlanta, co-produced by Synchronicity Theater and Impact Theater. It'll run for four weeks at Synchronicity Theater, and then it'll run for another three at Impact Theater. So Atlanta, I need y'all to show up. Go out, get your tickets, buy it up, run it up, as the children say.
Amena Brown:
Run it up, as the kids say. Please, no cap. I think I said that right. Anyway. Yes.
Kelundra Smith:
Bring the whole family, your auntie, grandma, all them, make it something. This is a play. It's funny, it's dramatic, it's heartwarming. You're going to fall in love with the Women of the Wash inspired by the Atlanta washerwomen's strike of 1881. Set in 1881, but it's going to feel super contemporary given all the things happening with labor around the country right now, and you're going to laugh. This is the thing that surprises everybody. I've written a comedy about a labor strike because I'm not writing ahead, and so you are going to laugh.
Amena Brown:
I love that. I love this, Kelundra.
Kelundra Smith:
So that's been a lovely development. And then the other thing is that I have now had a chance to step into a role as the managing editor at American Theater Magazine, which is something, thank you, that I was never expecting or looking at. Honestly, I had given up the idea of working as a journalist full-time at somebody's publication probably six years ago, to be honest. I was just like, "Yeah, that's not going to happen. Let it go," and then one day I saw a job posted on Facebook and I was just like, "Well, let me just see." And all of a sudden they were like, "We want you," and I was just like, "Oh, snap." So it's been a wild ride and super fun so far to be there, and I'm looking forward to all of the things that we get to do.
So look for American Theater Magazine. You can check us out online. Also, we are quarterly in print. I will say American Theater is a magazine where the print and the online are not exactly the same, so you're going to get some content in print that you don't get online, and you're going to get some content online that you don't get in print. So it's worth it to have both. So those have been two career highlights, so to speak. And then the last thing I'll say is just that I feel like this has been the year of surrender, and surrender as a recovering perfectionist, as we have talked about in past episodes. Everybody raise your right hand. Hi, my name is Kelundra, I'm a recovering perfectionist.
Amena Brown:
Hi, Kelundra. Yes, yes.
Kelundra Smith:
So as a recovering perfectionist, surrender actually feels like whatever your least favorite bodily sensation is, but when you get into the habit of it, it's so much better. And what I have found this year is I'm getting better. I ain't got there yet, y'all, but I'm getting so much better and I find myself sometimes going in the extreme opposite direction where I'm just like, "You know what? I don't even care. I'm done." Walk away from everything I'm about to be like Roy Wood Jr. did to the Daily Show.
Amena Brown:
Period. Period. He was like, "Oh, I see y'all playing in my face, so I'm out of here."
Kelundra Smith:
I'm out of here. They were playing in his face. Clearly the fan favorite, the one who ran up the ratings, all of that. He was the pick and they were like, "We still got people to talk to," and Roy was like, "All right, that's fine. I believe in me," and I understand that feeling wholeheartedly.
Amena Brown:
I feel that, Kelundra. I feel that. Well, first of all, I am just very excited about all of these developments. I'm excited about the world premiere of your play, Kelundra. What a big deal. It's a big deal to finish a play to finish writing one, not to mention now getting a chance to see this in full production on stage. I'm so, so happy for you. This position with this magazine, Kelundra, everything. It's like if y'all could see me on what is still Twitter to me, I don't care what that man say. If y'all could see me on Twitter in Kelundra's comments like, "Yes, Kelundra. Yes. You deserve. I know that's right." That's like the energy that I feel every time these announcements come.
And I appreciate the realness of what you said, that you can see sort of someone's story from a distance. You're not there to see all the things happening behind the scenes and that the successes we experience in life often come to us from those places of surrender that you described, and I appreciate you sharing that side too, that those things are connected in this way. Sometimes we want them to be and sometimes we don't, but they be connected.
Kelundra Smith:
Listen. Listen. God be like, "Are you going to let go, or are you going to fight for your position?" And I'd just be like, "I'm trying to let go."
Amena Brown:
I'd be like, "What's the definition of let go? What do you mean when you say let go? Can I get a clarity? Is there an Urban Dictionary's version?"
Kelundra Smith:
I need the instruction. I literally prayed one day, I was like, "God, I know you want me to surrender, but you know I don't know how, so I'm going to need you to come with an instruction manual on how that works, because I feel like I'm surrendering, but clearly I'm not."
Amena Brown:
I would like some steps. I would like some steps.
Kelundra Smith:
I need some steps, which is such a perfectionist thing to me.
Amena Brown:
It is definitely that because I've definitely like, "If it's 33 steps, just tell me all 33. I need them now," but surrender really be like you get two steps and that's it, and then you have to wait there until you get the third one. That'd be the hard part for me. If it's 33 steps, then just say it now. I can map out my plans, I can decide what I'm doing here, but instead you going to give me step one and step two and then be like, "Wait there," and that's not my shit. That's not my shit.
Kelundra Smith:
You got to do big faith. It ain't little faith, it's big faith.
Amena Brown:
I'm like, "This is not me. This is not what I want." So yes, thank you, Kelundra. I'm going to make sure we share the links to all of this so that people can support, and I want to be in the place to be myself to see your play on stage like this. I can't wait. I'm so excited.
Kelundra Smith:
Yes. Look for us June and July 2024.
Amena Brown:
Oh, yes. I'm ready. Let me mark my calendar. Let me get an outfit. Let me get an outfit because I'm going to be trying to take Kelundra picture so that way later on I can use it as my throwback Thursday when people are like, "Oh my gosh. She has a picture with Kelundra Smith." I'll be like, "Yes, this is me and Kelundra back in the day. Hey. Well, you could get her on a podcast for free. Oh my God." Oh my God. Now yesterday's price. I understand, Kelundra. Yesterday's price. It's not the same.
Kelundra Smith:
For you, yesterday's price is today's price. Now, for everybody else.
Amena Brown:
You going to pay tomorrow's price today. That's everybody else. That's the thing. Mm-hmm. Well, y'all, Kelundra and I are here to discuss our best TV of 2023, and I really hate to begin on the down note, but I need to start with best shows we're really going to miss. Last year this time you and I were mourning the loss of the Desus and Mero Show and it still has left a void here with me. What are some of the best shows that we found out this year that are not going to come back? What are some shows that you were like, "Man, I'm going to miss that one."?
Kelundra Smith:
So we knew the end was coming for The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, but for those of us who grew up on Gilmore Girls, we have to also understand the Amy Sherman-Palladino and Dan Palladino is only going to give you a show every decade. So we were really savoring The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, because we know next show, 2030. You know what I mean? So that's one of those things where it was like this final season of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel was really, really... I love that they left it with an untidy ending because that is so Midge and that is so that show, but I also appreciate that they did tie up some other stuff for us. And they played with form a bit by they flashed us forward in time.
For those who have or have not seen it, they flash us forward in time a bit, and then I was like, "Is this the Joan and Melissa Rivers unauthorized story? What's happening here?" I love that show. For those who've never watched it, it starts in the late 1950s. Basically a housewife finds out her husband is cheating on her with his secretary. She, in a fit of rage, goes down to the village, gets on stage at a rundown comedy club, does a set and then becomes a standup comedian and gets a divorce.
Amena Brown:
And that's a feat generally, but especially in the late 1950s. I mean, that's a big feat.
Kelundra Smith:
And this show is so funny. It's so funny. If you are someone who used to The Nanny back in the day, then that kind of quick writing that you get from Gilmore Girls mixed with some sensibilities from The Nanny, it is going to hit all your access points. But we're saying goodbye to Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and I'm going to miss it. Next one I have to say is... And we somewhat recently found out this information. I don't know why, I was all up into the Wonder Years reboot.
Amena Brown:
Okay, the same. The same.
Kelundra Smith:
I was like, "What do you mean it's not coming back?"
Amena Brown:
Why would you cancel it? I wanted to see him make it to high school, the baby boy. I wanted to see him make it to high school. I don't know. It's a lot of sadness around that because I think we've had an era of some much needed feel good shows and between Abbott Elementary and the Wonder Years reboot, I really enjoyed seeing this cast Black during this era, in the South during this era, but it was filled with so much joy and whimsy and the curiosity of this little boy and all of his foibles and mistakes. I'm going to miss that one, Kelundra. Yeah, that one hurt my heart. I was mad about it.
Kelundra Smith:
I'm going to miss it, and I also am thinking to myself about Grand Crew.
Amena Brown:
Okay, I'm glad you brought that up because that is the show that I was really big... When I tell you I've been in my house, Grand Crew, Grand Crew, Grand crew. It had the fantastic theme song. Me and Matt really clang-clang now after watching that show. That shit was so great, Kelundra, how dare they take it away from us? I'm not over it still.
Kelundra Smith:
It was so witty. The thing about Grand Crew is that it was so witty, because first of all, the fact that they had a wine metaphor for the names of the episodes and then the play on words. Grand Crew, it was television for people who get the joke, and that's the thing that I appreciated about it. And I love, again, that it was happy lighthearted Black TV, and I am sad that we will no longer have the Grand Crew.
Amena Brown:
Oh, that show was so good. That hurt my feelings. I think in a way it was a show about something, but it had some episodes where it was able to be a show about nothing sometimes, and I think it really brings me a lot of joy when Black casts and shows that were created by Black creators get to have that, get to just be like, "We're going to have a show about this character's little quirks," and the whole show is just about that. I just was like, "Yes." Some of it was nonsensical, some of the plots and the things that the characters were doing, and I just loved every minute of it. So big shout out to Grand Crew. I love that show. I missed that one.
I do have to bring Succession into the chat. It's a different goodbye. It's a different goodbye because that one was not canceled and stolen away from us, but I love a good organized crime situation. So when there's organized corporate crime, I'm like, "Oh, yes. Sign me up for that. This is my type of thing please," And this very dysfunctional, fictional Fox News family. Wow. What a time this television show was. I really got mad. I was watching it and when it got to Succession going to be in it's final season, I was like, "Okay, now this is a couple show." So now you got to start with me from the beginning, and we watched all the way til we got to the end. Woo. Succession. I love the hell out of that show. It was such a mess. It was such a really rich white corporate mess, and you know I love mess, Kelundra, generally. You know I do. But something about rich white corporate mess. Succession. RIP. Enjoyed you. Enjoyed you.
Kelundra Smith:
I never watched Succession. I know, y'all. Don't get me. Don't get me. I'm the only person who never watched it, but it's on my list. It is on my list.
Amena Brown:
You let me know.
Kelundra Smith:
Well, because during these strikes, it's actually on during the strike list of watches, but I got caught up in all the Power spinoffs.
Amena Brown:
There was a lot of Power spinoffs. Now, Power done turned into a universe on us. I was like, "Damn, every time I turn around, we going to a prequel, it's a postquel, it's somebody's child. What we doing here? Oh my God." It's so much Power to watch. It do take up your time, so I understand that, Kelundra.
Kelundra Smith:
It's taken all of my time. I am like... You know what it has done truly, Amena, is that it has made me be 100000% fully convinced that I am one of the only people not selling drugs. That is what Power has made me believe. I'm like, "Everybody's doing it. They're all..." Whenever I see a van, I'm like, "Drugs." Or tiny home. Drugs in tiny home.
Amena Brown:
Also, anytime I see a business that seems like it doesn't make sense for it to not be busy in that location, money laundering. They're probably using that to wash their drug money.
Kelundra Smith:
Yes, every laundromat, nail salon, daycare centers. Because of Power, I'm like, "Ooh, they running money."
Amena Brown:
That's how they're washing their money. I literally have what is supposed to be a co-working space not far from my neighborhood. I draw by that hole all different times of the day, Kelundra. Don't never see nobody there. It got a website. Don't ever see nobody there. Why would it be there except to wash people drug money. Why?
Kelundra Smith:
It's washing drugs. They're totally washing drug money.
Amena Brown:
That's all I can think because I'm like, "Y'all got a website, but where are the workers? You got a co-working space. I don't see no workers. It's a fashion show with no fashions?" It's dreadful. It's dreadful.
Kelundra Smith:
But workers only work between midnight and 4:00 AM.
Amena Brown:
The workers is working the corner. Big facts. Big facts. Okay, let's talk about the TV app that kept us watching this year. I believe we need to discuss Amazon Prime at this time, and Amazon Prime, I be forgetting about it sometimes, Kelundra, because Netflix be real urgent. I really get in my Love is Blind and then I'm like, "Ooh, I got to make sure I'm watching that on Friday," and then Hulu be urgent because that's where your weekly shows is at. So sometimes Amazon Prime be on the corner of God's back. You know what I'm saying? It'd be like somewhere else. But then when I get up in there, I'm like, "Oh, no. It's some good stuff in here." So do you have some Amazon Prime favorites that were your things for this year?
Kelundra Smith:
So let me tell you, Amazon Prime, if we're giving out awards, this is the end of the school year award ceremony, Amazon Prime gets most improved programming for a streaming platform. Give it up to Amazon Prime because Amazon Prime was truly giving Walmart of the internet. Amazon Prime would have content on it that was produced for $2.50 and then it would have content on it that was produced for $250 million, and it was just like, "What's the strategy here, Amazon? I'm confused." It's clear that tech people and not artists are running this because the range of what I'm getting is just so wild. I remember there used to be this show on Prime that was about these Black people who were expatriates, who they moved from Carmel, Indiana to Thailand, and it was self-produced, written and directed all by one person, and it was just like, "Why do I have this and the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel on the same platform?" This is foolish. But this year, Amazon has really given us some fantastic shows. I have to give a shout-out to I'm a Virgo-
Amena Brown:
I need to speak about it. I need to speak about it. We got to talk about it, Kelundra, because shout out to Boots Riley for being weird in the best way because I enjoyed Sorry to Bother You as well. I enjoyed this, and so then when it was like, oh, we about to get into I'm a Virgo, I was like, "Okay." But at first I was like, "Oh, I want to really watch that," when I read the description. Then when I got to Amazon Prime and looked at the little cover graphic and looked at their description, I was like, "Wait. Am I prepared for what I'm about to see? What is about to happen to me here?" I'm a Virgo was one of the most weird and delicious movies that I have seen.
Kelundra Smith:
Weird and delicious is such a perfect way to describe it.
Amena Brown:
What were your thoughts when you really got into the plot of that? How were your feelings regarding this?
Kelundra Smith:
I feel like I'm a Virgo sent me on a whole emotional experience because at first it's like... Okay. First of all, I love Boots Riley, literally love Boots Riley. Then we get into it and it's like, okay, these people got this giant baby who they keep in a shed in the back. What's happening here? Then he leaves the house and they're spinning out cars in the middle of the street and also eating fast food because all he wants to do is go get this fast food. But then when the girl falls in love with him, you're like, "She weird too." It was so many things. But then when the metaphor started to come together of I'm a Virgo is really, truly about the fear around Black men, especially young Black men in society. The metaphor clicks round about episode three, I would say, but for the first two, you're going to be along for the ride because you are like, "What is this?" And why is Mike Epps now just occupying the role of everybody's crazy daddy?
Amena Brown:
Everybody's daddy. Wow.
Kelundra Smith:
Crazy daddy.
Amena Brown:
Also, not me not knowing that Denzel Washington had a daughter until I looked into the credits of I'm a Virgo and was not the love interest being a child of Denzel Washington. I didn't even know. Baby girl managed to just live her Black woman ass life. She really had a if you know, you know life until this movie, I didn't know anything about her.
Kelundra Smith:
I had no idea until you just said it. I'm like, "Wow." I mean, we knew Denzel and Pauletta had more than one child, but I never actually investigated into the lives of those children. I did not.
Amena Brown:
She must have had her a nice just out of the limelight life, because I looked on, I was like, "Oh, okay." Even seeing a Black woman in a movie and last name Washington still didn't click Denzel to me, but the scenes in the show were so interesting that I find myself Googling things. Then they were like, Denzel Washington's daughter, and I said, "Excuse me. Excuse me. Denzel Washington's daughter out here being a wonderfully Black woman, weird-ass character, weird-ass love interest with a giant?"
Kelundra Smith:
With a giant. And we won't even get into the graphic nature of it all, but it's-
Amena Brown:
Might have to do a bonus episode about that, Kelundra, because I do have some thoughts. Okay, continue. Continue.
Kelundra Smith:
Well, the thing that I love about that show too is that connecting, since you've said it, that that's Denzel's daughter. Now I'm just like, "Okay, so Denzel and Pauletta Washington's kids turned out like the kids of artists." They're just a little off and I love it.
Amena Brown:
I do love that. I love that from them. I was in very much supportive of that. Other things that you loved on Amazon Prime? We already talked about Mrs. Maisel. What else are some jewels that were there this year?
Kelundra Smith:
Okay, underappreciated gem, post-apocalyptic comedy-ish set in a Catholic all-girls boarding school in Australia where they have come back for their 10-year reunion and then the apocalypse hits. Is called Class of '07. If you have not seen this foolishness, just binge-watch it. It is worth your time. I don't even understand who wrote this or why. I don't know why in 2023 you would want to set a TV show in 2017, because it's not that long ago, but that's the choice they made and that choice sets you up for the utter and complete foolishness that unfolds during this TV show.
Amena Brown:
What? I got to add this to my list because I missed this. I missed this, so I'm glad you told me about that.
Kelundra Smith:
Also, more utter and complete foolishness, who let them give us Jury Duty?
Amena Brown:
Boy, I'm like two or three episodes in and I'm like, "What am I looking at?" This is like candid camera in the reverse. What's happening? What's happening? Everybody's acting, but this one person... Is that the premise? I'm still watching and I'm like, "Do I know what I'm looking at? Am I understanding?" So is the premise of Jury Duty that there's a person who thinks they're really going to jury duty, but they are in fact surrounded by all actors? Is that the premise? Am I understanding it right, Kelundra?
Kelundra Smith:
I cannot confirm nor deny because getting to the end is part of the journey of that show.
Amena Brown:
Okay, so I got to keep watching.
Kelundra Smith:
You can't stop. Once you watch one episode of Jury Duty, you got to watch the whole season.
Amena Brown:
Okay. I'm glad you told me this because I was really like... I'm not exactly sure what's happening and isn't there one of the producers has a show that's on Max that's also kind of strange like this? Oh, I can't remember his name now, but I tried to watch his show on Max and it's kind of awkward like this. So I'm like, "Oh my God." But I'm glad you told me, stay through to the end.
Kelundra Smith:
You got to stay through to the end.
Amena Brown:
Stay the course. Stay the course for Jury Duty. Okay.
Kelundra Smith:
You're going to scream several times. Just know you're in for a ride.
Amena Brown:
Okay, I'm going to come back. I'm going to come back and check that out. I want to speak about Shiny Happy People.
Kelundra Smith:
You know we love a conspiracy series.
Amena Brown:
This is the documentary surrounding the Duggar family, but it's also giving us some context regarding Fundamentalist Evangelicalism, regarding why that became a popular thing on television. The fact that they called that documentary Shiny Happy People really took me clean out of here. Took me clean out of here.
Kelundra Smith:
I have to be honest with you and say that I didn't know what to expect from that docuseries, but when I got into it, I couldn't stop and it blew my mind. You want to talk about mess? There's so much mess that you find out about in Shiny Happy People, and it's amazing how the machine, the political... It's like the religious machine got into the lobbying political machine and used the media to advance an agenda and it's happening, and the thing is, the Duggars being off the air has not changed what's happening. It's still happening.
The way that this family was used to create propaganda around the kind of traditional roles of women and men in society and what God wants from people and to get people to get married and reproduce and reproduce and reproduce, all to preserve an idea of eugenics is just so... My mind was blown. Then the fact that the whistleblower of the family had to be the sister who was being sexually abused by her brothers. I was like, "Stop." Then not only are... Then they doubled down and we knew about the Ashley Madison case. We knew about the Ashley Madison Case because Ashley Madison back in the day was getting everybody hemmed up, but the fact that there was just so much deviance going on and that friends and neighbors knew, and they were just like, "God will fix it." Huh? Or you could call 9-1-1. You know what I mean?
Amena Brown:
Okay, and report it. I don't know what we mean. Also, I watched the early, probably first couple of seasons of the Duggar Show and I can't remember if I'd had a friend who recommended it to me. I also was probably in a much more evangelical place obviously than I am at this time of life, and the one person I wanted to see in the series was the cousin. I cannot remember her name off the top of my head right now, but she would come and visit there.
She was on there, but she would come and visit there in the TV show, and I always thought it was interesting that she is clearly not growing up the same as her cousins, but her parents, and her aunt and uncle, I guess, were allowing her to hang out with the Duggar Children. They were all allowed to grow up together. You know what I'm talking about? I can't remember her name right now, but I always thought it was very curious of why is it not seen that she is someone who would be corrupting in this? So when her and her husband popped up on the docuseries, I was like, "Oh, I know the tea coming out right now. Your cousin is on here. I know she was at your house almost every day."
Kelundra Smith:
Well, and then we learned too in the series, now it's jogging my memory, she stopped messing with them after a while. She put some distance, and I honestly think that husband was like, "Nah, your family crazy."
Amena Brown:
He was like, "We don't need to go over there no more. I don't care if it's Christmas, Thanksgiving. I don't care what those people are doing. We don't need to be over there, period. No, no."
Kelundra Smith:
It was wild. I was like, "This is absolutely insane."
Amena Brown:
I was like, "They really got the tea out here. Really got the tea." The daughters is on here, the cousin on here, somebody's sister, one of the Duggar parents' sisters on here. The people came out and said, "Sorry, it's not family over everything. I'm about to tell it. I'm about to tell it. I'm about to tell what happened, period." That was a very interesting one.
Kelundra Smith:
Neighbors was on there. The former best friends were on there. I was like, "Dang." I said, "They about to put y'all stuff out there like the Murdaugh people." I mean, the Murdaughs weren't on Prime, but we got to get to the Murdaughs because that fool...
Amena Brown:
This is actually a good transition into best docuseries because as Kelundra coined on here, we love us a Scamumentory, and I do want us to speak further about some other documentaries. So let's get into the Murdaughs because I lightly get into true crime. If it started getting into murder... I like an organized drug front. I like some corporate greed as a part of a Scamumentory. When it get into true crime where it's like people is getting murdered, sometimes I be scared like this is about to make me have nightmares, but so many things were coming up about the Murdaughs that what got me to watching was the Netflix docuseries because I really didn't watch it the first time, but then when they were kind of similar to that one that you and I talked about last year, that was about the woman who had the really big hair and she had the church in Tennessee.
Kelundra Smith:
Way Down.
Amena Brown:
Uh-huh. And then they were like, "But we going to come back and have another installment episodes," and I was like, "How many could this be?" And this happened with the Murdaughs because they had the initial series, which I didn't watch, and then they were like, "Aha, we have more updates," and I was like, "No, no. If you had time to come back and do more episodes, that seems like my type of mess." So I just went ahead and watched the whole thing. What the hell was going on over there?
Kelundra Smith:
Listen, these people wreaked havoc in this small South Carolina town, and then they didn't just keep it confined to their town, they proceeded to basically wreak havoc across the state of South Carolina. How on earth are you so dysfunctional that you create mess that an entire state has to clean up? For people who did not watch or have not understood about the Murdaughs, basically there was this family in this rural South Carolina town who had gotten to the place where they were managing partners in the law firm in town and were greasing the hands of every single judge throughout the state of South Carolina, and then all of a sudden it gets Shakespearean and everybody around them just starts dying. And so then what happens is that the wrong pretty girl got killed in a boating accident, and the proverbial you-know-what hit the fan, and everybody right now is just dead or in prison. That's all you need to know. Everybody's dead or in prison.
Amena Brown:
That's it. And the journey of how you find out that that's the results was a very, very fascinating journey. I was a little nervous. I did watch it during the daytime because I don't want to be scared at night. But it was very interesting, sort of the power structure, those power dynamics. I mean, especially being people from the South, the southern dynamics of what is allowed to be said in public of what is family business and what is not considered to be family business. The dynamics of the girls and women in these situations as well, and where they did or did not have agency. And people still really running rampant out here still. Some people is in prison and some people not. It's just like why are you not also in jail? What?
Kelundra Smith:
First of all, let me just... If anybody's listening, they got a problem with it, see Kelundra, not Amena. Somebody going to have to prove to me that that housekeeper ain't... She's withholding. She knows more than she said that she did. She is withholding, somebody lying. It's really no telling what the body count is for this family. Then you got to get the Lifetime movie supplement because Lifetime is like, "We're not a docuseries. We going to make a movie about what's true and what's rumor," and so it's a two-part movie. You know your family is messy when you get a two-part Lifetime movie period. There's four hours worth of Murdaugh content.
Amena Brown:
And this is not 2300 Jackson Street. You know what I'm saying? You expect to have a two-part film about a family that has nine family members, two of which became two of the biggest rock stars in the world. You had a four-hour film about murder, about your family being connected to murder.
Kelundra Smith:
Right. They had Titanic, Murdaugh.
Amena Brown:
Dog, please. I also really want to speak about the Secrets of Hillsong. I don't know if you participated in watching this docuseries, but I told you-
Kelundra Smith:
I started, but I didn't finish. But go.
Amena Brown:
I told you that I enjoy watching white people mess in these types of situations, but because I worked in white conservative church, these documentaries about white conservative church mess, it really hit me different because I was in greeting rooms with some of those people. I was at conferences with some of those people. So I had already watched the... There was two versions about this Hillsong story. Discovery App had one that sort of centered the woman who... And for those of you are familiar, Hillsong is/was a church in New York City that was very celebrity-adjacent. So there were a lot of athletes and entertainers who were very connected to this church, which gave the church and the pastor who was Carl Lentz at that time, gave the church and the pastor notoriety.
So originally while Carl Lentz and his family were in hiding away from the media, Discovery App, did a series where they interviewed the woman who had a relationship with Carl while he was married. When they do the thing... Let me tell you a moment I live for in a documentary, when they sit the chair out and they have the person walk in. I live for that, Kelundra, because you're like, "Oh, shit."
Kelundra Smith:
It's going to be a Stormy Daniels appearance.
Amena Brown:
I'm like, "Damn, they let you walk out here like this?" Because you're like, "Now I know I'm going to get the tea. I'm just not going to get people pontificating about the tea or hypothesizing about the tea. I'm about to get the tea." So I had already watched that one, but then when Hulu was like, "We indeed have Carl Lentz and his wife sitting down in the chair," I was like, "Yes, indeed I will watch this. I want to see the tea," and I was always very curious. Generally in white conservative evangelical space, there's a lot of story around what happens when a white man in leadership has a fall from grace, and typically it's not a very far fall because there is always some structure to sort of help him come back as leadership coach, come back as business owner, come back as whatever that is.
So I was very interested to see what's going to be the comeback for this person and to see him and his wife really... They really gave up some tea about this organization that they had felt they had to be loyal to all these years. Wow. I really enjoyed the tea about that. I will say there were some moments that I was like, "Oh, I see everything's not different." There were a few moments where I'm hearing that answer and thinking, "Yikes. No, thank you." But I enjoyed every minute of that tea. I enjoy rich people mess. I enjoy white, rich people mess. I enjoy white Christian rich people mess, and that's really...
Kelundra Smith:
The latter is truly the trifecta of mess that makes it great. Carl Lentz though is interesting, because you remember, on a little network, there was a show called Preachers of LA, and he was on that show and that was messy, and on that show, when he was on that show, he was like the preacher who everybody was saying was kind of the sane one, but the streets were talking back then about Hillsong and what was going on there, and then... Okay, you have permission to edit this out, but the streets is also talking about the affiliation between Maverick City Music and Hillsong and I'm so exhausted.
Amena Brown:
It'd be a lot, ma'am. It'd be a lot. Because the thing that I also wanted to speak to about this in relation to your comment too is having worked in white evangelicalism as an industry, as a Black woman, and now no longer working in that industry, there is a lot of gaslighting going around over there where you are there like, "Something is not right over here. Something is not feeling like it's right," and everybody is giving you the God gone fix it sort of vibe, and then when you finally come out and breathe regular air and realize, "No, I was not off from what I was discerning here, I was discerning correctly that things were not right," then they take a documentary to be like, "Ah! Yeah, that's okay. That's the part. That's the part." So I feel like there will be more. There will be more exposes related to this industry, and I do have an air popper for my popcorn specifically for these situations.
Kelundra Smith:
There is always a Black or Brown woman who was the nurse, administrative assistant, accountant who will spill the tea, and so until she gets on camera, we haven't heard.
Amena Brown:
That part. That's the thing, that was the part about the Hillsong documentary that I was like, "Yeah," once I saw those couple of Black women, I was like, "Yes, yes. Tell us." It's very similar to the Lululemon... Not Lululemon. Is that the one?
Kelundra Smith:
Yeah, Lululemon. Lauren from Lululemon blew it up over there with... What's the show that we recently watched too? The Murdaughs. That's what did them in. It was Miss Shelly who was the [inaudible 00:49:24]. Miss Shelly had a brother who worked for the police department and her brother called her and said, "Don't get caught up."
Amena Brown:
He said, "This ain't what you want. This ain't what you want, honey." Okay, wait, it's not Lululemon. What is the name of those people, child? But it's similar to Lululemon. Oh my God. It's going to bother me.
Kelundra Smith:
But there was a Black woman who blew up Lululemon.
Amena Brown:
Did?
Kelundra Smith:
Yes.
Amena Brown:
Oh my God. I love Black women be blowing things up. Okay. Also, can you talk to me about the documentary about Pamela Anderson that was on Netflix? I'm not sure if you watched this.
Kelundra Smith:
I did not, because I like to leave Pamela Anderson back on that TV show she used to be on.
Amena Brown:
Baywatch?
Kelundra Smith:
No, not that one. The one after that.
Amena Brown:
Oh, I don't remember that one.
Kelundra Smith:
It was a TV show Pamela Anderson was on, I'm going to find the name of it, where it was her and a group of women who I feel like they used to fight crime or something. And I feel like this show was on the back corner of USA back in the day. You know what I mean? So I left Pammy, as they called her.
Amena Brown:
You wanted to leave her there.
Kelundra Smith:
I left her there, but What did we learn from the Pamela Anderson-
Amena Brown:
Well, I'm going to tell you the reason why I got involved is because of Hulu's series surrounding the sex tape of her and Tommy, and that was the first time... This series to me is included in other recounting of big moments that happened in the '90s when they did the American Crime on the OJ trial, when they did the series that was centered around Monica Lewinsky's experiences. These series, I feel like the Hulu more dramatized version of the Pamela and Tommy actually gave you more view into what it was like to be Pamela having gone through that. It was like at the time it was happening, the Me Too movement hadn't happened. We were still in an era where it was like, "Well, she decided to have sex on camera, air quotes, she deserved it," was still sort of the era. Tommy's getting all this masculine accolades and she's being made out to be like she's a terrible woman, but when they did the Hulu dramatized version, they actually sort of gave us more of the lens of her story and how that actually impacted her.
That really made me see her more through the light of today, that if that had happened today, there would've been more sympathy for her than there was then, which had me like, "What does a woman do after the way that shit hit the fan? What happens?" So I have to say that documentary made me... I think one of the things on it that was really wild is basically hearing Pamela say that Tommy is still her soulmate, that no matter who she's married or who she has dated since that man, she really feel like their relationships don't work because it's not him, even though she know when they get together, it ain't nothing but a hurricane and it's bad for both of them. That was some shit.
Kelundra Smith:
I mean, that's mature. I mean, I guess that's a mature perspective. I love you, but I got to love you from a distance. The TV show was called VIP, by the way.
Amena Brown:
Okay, thank you, because I was like, "Baywatch," but she had VIP too. So let me find out. But it endeared me. I felt endeared to Pamela and it made me want for her to win on her own terms. She got a follow out of me.
Kelundra Smith:
What does the winning look like for her at this point? Because I feel like she's one of those people who got stuck. She didn't Kim Kardashian her sex tape. She got stuck at that place in some ways.
Amena Brown:
Yeah, I think she definitely got a follow out of me after that documentary. That's how much it emotionally impacted me that I was like, "Let me follow her on Instagram." So it's sort of like you're seeing her slowly come out of her shell with some events that she's attending, some beginning partnerships with brands kind of thing. So I think she may still be figuring that out, but it was nice to see that. It was like, I want a win for you, whatever that looks like for you, Pamela. I want you to have that. Also, to close out our docuseries, I want to talk about Telemarketers on Max, and this is unfortunately a not best docuseries. They got me though. They got me, Kelundra. They got me. This documentary is... I don't know how to describe to you that it's very bad. The perspective is bad. I really feel like I want someone else to produce a documentary about telemarketing as an industry, about its underbelly.
This was like two homies who met in a telemarketing job that happened to be corrupt, and partly it's about them trying to reconnect with each other and partly about them trying to understand what they were selling, and it went very slowly and it went very badly, but so bad that I watched it until the end. So that is really our not best docuseries of 2023 is Telemarketers. Okay. I want to move on to a very specific reality TV moment. I need to speak to you about Real Housewives of New York, the reboot.
Kelundra Smith:
Do we have to?
Amena Brown:
Do you hate it, Kelundra? Do you hate it? Do you hate it? This is what I need to know. Do you hate it or have you not even felt compelled to watch? Discuss.
Kelundra Smith:
But diversity doesn't go the way you want it to.
Amena Brown:
They tried.
Kelundra Smith:
Is that how you make the case for DEI?
Amena Brown:
Okay, for those of you who are unfamiliar, who are not Housewives Heads, okay, so our last season of Real Housewives, prior to this reboot, Real Housewives of New York was getting static that it's in one of the most diverse cities in America, but the cast itself was not diverse. They added Eboni Williams, am I lying? I think this is her name.
Kelundra Smith:
Ebony Williams, who being a terrorist out here in these streets.
Amena Brown:
Very. Added her, and she maybe as a lawyer, maybe as a professorial type, I don't know, she felt like she needed to take these white ladies through a workshop on race, and inevitably what happened is racism jumped out. It was like all the racism was jumping out of some of them cast members to the point that that season did not have a reunion because so much racisms had jumped out during her Shabbat Shalom meals that she was trying to have to help these white women learn how to exist in current America, that they could not allow them to have a reunion and say more racist things, to the point that I guess they were just like, "Scrap this whole thing. Let's get us a whole new cast." They be younger, they be more diverse, and I'm going to tell you, Kelundra, I'm voting for these girls. This stuff on Real Housewives of New York, the reboot, this is some rich, white petty shit. Yes. These girls are fighting over cheese. Yes. That is the rich type of shit you watch Real Housewives for. Had a whole fight over cheese.
Kelundra Smith:
Beverly Hill season one. They're giving Beverly Hills season one vibes. It's very much Lisa Taylor, what was Kelsey Grammer... Camille Grammer. Kyle, Kim. It's giving that energy, but 20 years younger.
Amena Brown:
Yes. Very, very. I was like, these girls are really having a fight. Erin is about to cry that these girls would not receive her caviar. She's really about to be in tears that these girls would not receive her caviar. I enjoy this type of petty thing. I'm rooting for these girls. I'm silently whispering, "Is Atlanta ready to reboot?" Because...
Kelundra Smith:
We're ready. And also what I will say, the thing about all of these Housewives franchises though, usually... The redeeming quality of New York, even when it got crazy or boring, is that at least they can dress. Now, the mess is pretentious, but it's also like new money. You know what I mean? The ink is still drying on those bills and the wardrobe is chaotic. It's chaotic.
Amena Brown:
Really, the wardrobe is giving a couple of characters from Selling Sunset. There's a couple of really specific characters from Selling Sunset that I'm like, "Do you have to show houses wearing this? I mean, do the shoulder pads have to be that much at an angle? I don't think we need couture of this level to sell a house." So some people were trying. There were some feathers involved. There were some feathers involved.
Kelundra Smith:
There's literally every material involved and that's part of the problem. They were like, "We going to have feathers, beads too, and satin. Boom." It was just like, "Oh."
Amena Brown:
I was like, "Oh, we trying-trying. Okay, I got it."
Kelundra Smith:
Trying-trying.
Amena Brown:
Trying-trying. Okay. My last category that I want to discuss is best new show, and I want to start with your thoughts about, I think this is on Max, Young Love, which has been all over my everything. Everybody is talking, I have not watched, but I want you to tell us what are... I want you to tell us, first of all, generally what are the vibes? What do you love about it? And also, I want you to really convince me that I should watch an animated show because there is something in my mind sometimes that be like, "It's animated. It's not for me." So please tell us everything.
Kelundra Smith:
Can I sidebar though real quick before we talk about new shows? Speaking of things related to the Real Housewives of New York, but also that were new this year that we didn't get a chance to touch on was Deconstructing Karen, which if you're unfamiliar with Deconstructing Karen, it was basically what Eboni K. Williams was trying to do on the Real Housewives of New York where basically this Indian woman and this Black woman would have these dinners with these white women trying to make them better people, and then they went on Dr. Phil and it all fell apart. Anyway. So new show, Young Love on Max. I still have to stop calling it HBO Max, much like they keep saying it's X and not Twitter, and I'm like, "It's Twitter." Okay, so let me tell you, Matthew Cherry, who got the Academy Award for the short film, Hair Love. Yes, he now has an animated series on HBO about... It's like Ghetto Karma's world, but stay with me.
Basically, it's a little girl named Zuri who her mama does hair and her daddy makes beats and they live in one of her grandparents' apartments on the south side of Chicago, and she is all about creativity and the environment and experiments, and she's a free spirit and she's only nine, and then her mama recently had cancer and daddy is just trying to make it, but he's a real musician who's trying to do... He's giving you Mos Def. He's giving you Common, but he's got to make beats for the Lil Yachtys of the world, but he is trying not to sell his soul. And then his homegirl, voiced by Tamar Braxton, is like, "But you need to get this money though." And I say all of this to say, who knew we needed a hood cartoon about adult issues for children.
Amena Brown:
Wow. I think it's the four children for me. It's the four children with the question mark for me that tells me everything I needed to know. Thank you.
Kelundra Smith:
I don't know, I think it's supposed to be a family show. Yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Issa Rae voices the mom, her mama is voiced by Loretta Devine. I mean, it's top tier. They held nothing back. Young Love is worth it to watch. I don't know who it's for, but it's for everybody.
Amena Brown:
I really like that as an endorsement: I don't know who it's for, but it is for everybody. Okay, can you talk about Wellmania, because you mentioned this and I don't know anything about this show, so I really need you to tell because I saw this and really went to my little queue like, "Why is this not in my queue?" Tell us about Wellmania. Why is it one of the best new shows?
Kelundra Smith:
So let me tell you about how I enjoy a dysfunctional white girl is ruining her life movie, docuseries, really anything in that category, and so Wellmania... But let me tell you where Wellmania does it better because Wellmania has heart and it shows you yourself in a lot of ways because what Wellmania is it's a show about this woman who is a food journalist who is burning the candle at both ends, and she goes home for her brother's wedding in Australia. She's living in New York, but she goes home to Australia for her brother's wedding and she ends up collapsing and basically she can't get medical clearance to be able to fly to leave the country to go back to New York, and she's trying to audition for a role as a judge on a new TV show. It would basically be like she would be auditioning for the Food Network.
So we see her basically fighting and doing everything possible not to have to take care of herself. She's trying to master wellness so that she can get the medical clearance to get on the plane to get back and all the hijinks, hilarity and foolishness that ensues is also coupled with the fact that she has to address unresolved childhood traumas and other things like that. And they left us on such a cliffhanger in the last episode. I'm not going to give anything away. Everything I've said is not giving anything away, you just got to watch it unfold, but they left us on such a cliffhanger. If Netflix does not renew Wellmania for at least one more season, we must riot because what they not going to do is leave us where they left us. It's unacceptable. It's unacceptable.
Amena Brown:
I support this as a reason. I do. I'm glad you told me about this so I can add this to my queue. I have enjoyed Survival of the Thickest on Netflix as a new show. I mean, I'm already like, "Whatever Michelle Buteau doing, yes, I don't care." She got a shoe line? Yes. It's a lot of wigs. I don't even wear a wig, yes. Whatever Michelle Buteau say she doing, sure, yes, interested. This television show, it just was so heartwarming and somehow about boundaries and inclusion and loving oneself and hilarious, and her and the best friend... All the other characters that were supporting characters were also very interesting. Had a wonderfully interesting lives. Okay, with the olive oil everywhere.
Kelundra Smith:
Tell me why the roommate's hair was laid. I don't know what Black person in the hair department was doing that white girl's hair, but it was fabulous. Her hair was laying every scene, but she was weird as all get out.
Amena Brown:
She was so strange. I was like, "She's the perfect foil in this situation." I loved that. There were just a few moments of that show that I specifically wanted small video clips of, like when Michelle Buteau said, "I'm going to mind my business and water my plants," I was like, "Yes, let's do that." Then she had sexual encounter, one of many, with this man who had this New York accent that sounded like he could have been the extra member of Wu-Tang and some things go on that ruined the sexual moment, and when she stepped out of the bathroom and said, "I'm tired and my titties are heavy," and he said, "Let me be your titty assistant," I was like, "You know what, Michelle Buteau? Yes." Survival of the Thickest really gave me some things.
Listen, me and Kelundra don't even have time to tell y'all everything. We just going to leave y'all with this and then me and Kelundra are going to talk about some other reality TV things as a bonus episode. So if you are on my Patreon, the bonus episode will be there for you to listen to. Kelundra, you are the absolute best. Thank you so much for being here and talking TV with me. It's always great. I feel like really, even if I wasn't doing this on the podcast, I would still be trying to beg you to come on my IG or something and be like, "Let's just go on Live so we could talk publicly."
Kelundra Smith:
Yes, this is so fun because... It's fun because I love the range of TV that we both watch. We will run the board.
Amena Brown:
It's true, and you always say things that I'm like, "Oh, I hadn't thought about watching that," or if we both watch, you always have a different perspective on it that I'm always like, "I could see why Kelundra said that." So thank you again for this, Kelundra. We hope we gave y'all some recommendations so that y'all can get your TV watching together while we hope that they're going to pay the actors fairly so that whatever TV is in the pipeline can get made. That is our next hopes is that the people that's supposed to be getting paid to make TV can get paid the appropriate, fairly, the rates that they deserve. That's what we want. So thank you so much, Kelundra. You're the best.
Kelundra Smith:
Thank you. You're the best.
Amena Brown:
HER with Amena Brown is produced by Matt Owen for Sol Graffiti Productions as a part of the Seneca Women Podcast Network in partnership with iHeartRadio. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast.